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  1. #11
    Can't be satisfied. Peter Deadpan's Avatar
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    Good stuff here, guys - I like where this is going.

  2. #12
    Can't be satisfied. Peter Deadpan's Avatar
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    This is my interpretation of love.
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  3. #13
    one way trip Abendrot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xann View Post
    I mostly agree with your post, but I think you perhaps have over-objectivized the concept of love, as Te users are wont to do. Being worthy of love is a subjective concept and dependent on the particular person and their subjective standards of desire. Do babies deserve love, even though they cannot fend for themselves nor even yet have any concrete understanding of other peoples' existence at all? Love is many times not earned, and yet given, even or especially in a romantic sense. This however does not negate the importance of continual self-overcoming as you noted, as well, to maximize the love that one is able to both give and receive from oneself and others. Learning to love oneself can be simply understood as becoming self-aware and affirming in a positive sense of one's own relation to the objectivity of others and reality itself.
    Agreed. Love is indeed subjective, so when I say that a person must become worthy of love, I mean that chiefly, they must become worthy by their own standards which they use to judge others, and live consistently with their values. The end result is not self-love, but rather pride. Not the swaggering and arrogant sort of pride that people often deride, but a serene and high-minded sort, of the kind alluded to by Aristotle.

  4. #14
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Deadpan View Post
    Good stuff here, guys - I like where this is going.
    Love loves love.

    Love is reciprocal.

    We are fully grown when we can empathise with others, but if we do not receive empathy in return, love tends to wither.

  5. #15
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    What the fuck is this post, lol.

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    I can't stop laughing, lol.

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    My belly hurts, lol.

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    Of course depressed people deserve love.
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  6. #16
    Senior Member tkae.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Deadpan View Post
    How do you feel/what do you think when you hear the following claims about love, ***specifically in relation to those dealing with depression:

    "Love yourself before loving another."
    "Love when you're ready, not when you're lonely."
    "No one is going to love you if you don't love yourself."
    "Learn how to be alone and like it."
    Etc., etc., etc....

    A Facebook friend posted the following quote today: "Your relationship with yourself sets the tone for every other relationship you have."
    This was my response:

    " I understand the message, but lately I've been thinking about the ramifications these claims have on people with depression.
    'You can't love someone until you love yourself.'
    'Learn to be happy alone.'
    Etc., Etc....
    While there is certainly truth to these statements, it's simply not that easy for depressed individuals to consistently manifest these thoughts an
    What are my thoughts on them? They're all true and should be lived by, except for, "No one is going to love you if you don't love yourself." That one's a statement that means well but uses a bad method. Guilting people into doing something good for themselves is pretty bad practice for improving someone's emotional wellbeing. It's bad practice anyways, but particularly with emotions.

    What are my thoughts about their relation to people with depression? My thoughts are that you're taking on true statements through the a lense that isn't valid.

    What I mean by that is that these are statements that are valid for the average person, not for somebody with depression. These aren't things that are ever used in therapeutic intervention for depression for the very reasons you mentioned. That doesn't mean we should attack the validity of the statements in order to shield people from depression having bad thoughts about themselves, because that's pointless. People with depression will have bad thoughts about themselves. That's just the nature of depression. You could paint a wall 1000 different colors and every single one of them would make them feel bad about themselves. So it's as pointless as banning beef to protect people with high cholesterol from having heart attacks. You're removing a critical and beneficial source of protein in order to protect a few people who might still have a heart attack from eating fried chicken.

    If you're depressed, you need to see a therapist to help you out with your feelings about those statements, and get medication for the chemical imbalance. Period. End of story.

    Now that we've appropriately separated the concepts, let's get into their meaning.

    The entire point of these statements is to help us understand that loving another is not the same as loving ourselves, and that our happiness either is not or should not be correlated to the happiness of another. Happiness is a personal and individual emotion, and, while it can improve relationships, it cannot be floated by relationships.

    Let me give you a personal example. I'm a pretty happy person. I've studied positive psychology, I have a strengths-based approach to mental health, and believe in advocating for the true elements of happiness that our culture has inaccurately defined for us. My boyfriend struggles with post-traumatic depression, has low self-esteem, and has a significant number of behaviors that are contrary to his happiness. My happiness and knowledge has nothing to do with his experience. I can help him. I can cheer him up. I can improve his day. But I can't live his life for him, and can't make him stop thinking the thoughts or doing the activities that make him unhappy. And I shouldn't. That's not my place in an equal relationship. His happiness has nothing to do with how much he loves me or how much I love him. I improve his life, but our relationship shouldn't define his happiness. He needs to be on solid enough ground that he can be happy when I'm not capable of cheering him up, or when I need him to help me. The relationship will always be imbalanced if one person is being carried by the other and is incapable of reciprocating when necessary.

    Here's another example. You can love others without loving yourself, but you shouldn't. Pulling from another cliche, you can't pour from an empty cup. Or, the best way I've ever heard, you can't save someone else if you end up drowning alongside them. I'm in social work, and back when I first started, I didn't understand the concept of self-care. I thought that serving clients to the best of your ability meant that any sacrifices were worthwhile. I was willing to take on a level of stress in order to accomplish that, so long as my clients ended up okay.

    The result? By putting their needs above my own capabilities, I ended up crashing and burning hard within the first two weeks. I had too much paperwork, was jumping through hoops at their convenience, and didn't get done the basic things I needed to get done. By putting others before myself, I compromised the care of very people I was putting first. All I had to do in order to avoid the outcome was at some point say, "No, I'm not going to do that for you right now because there's other things I need to do first." Every single person is a finite reason, and can't be taxed beyond their capability. The problem is that we view others through a lens of reason, while we view ourselves through a lens of criticism. When I took on too many clients and worked myself too hard, other people objectively pointed out that it was going to end poorly. To me, it was logical and reasonable. We have a blindspot towards the humanization of ourselves.

    These little quotes and sayings are things that are intended to reorient us towards ourselves as finite beings with limited capacity. More importantly, they profess things that are true in the long term but difficult in the short term. Which is why, yes, it's easier to say, "Love when you're ready, not when you're lonely," when you're in a happy relationship than it is to say when you've been single for two years. Because loneliness is painful, and even scary. But the point of the saying is that loneliness is less painful than a bad relationship and painful breakup, all of which could have been avoided if you waited for a good relationship rather than settling for one to stop being lonely. A little bit of loneliness now sets you up for a true and solid relationship, which is something we have to consciously orient ourselves towards, since it's not something that's typical of human nature.

    All that gets back to the topic of loving yourself. If you truly love yourself, you'll love yourself enough to wait for the right relationship despite how lonely it can be. If you truly love someone else, you'll recognize that your lack of self-worth can drain the relationship by the other person constantly having to carry your happiness. If you can't love yourself, you're going to tax yourself beyond your capacity. You're going to wake up one day and wonder why the person you've sacrificed everything for to make happy isn't making you happy in the same way. Why? Because your happiness was based on their happiness, and they've never been truly making you happy. And that's not how happiness works. You can't say that you're happy as a couple, it's not something you share in a happiness account at the emotions bank. You have to check yourself, and not get your own happiness lost within the giving and taking of the relationship.
    "Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away." -Ekaku Hakuin
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  7. #17
    Upside-Down Rainbow Maya Dawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I think the whole "love yourself" thing is overemphasized. What does it even mean?
    Thank you! Finally someone said it!
    “The world breaks everyone, then some become strong at the broken places.” ~Ernest Hemingway

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    Nohari: https://kevan.org/nohari?name=~MS*ANGEL~

    Quote Originally Posted by Nijntje View Post
    "And then, raising my lids slowly and looking out from underneath my lashes, i captured him with my eyes"

  8. #18
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    People who give too much of a shit about themselves aren't even worth in the first place.
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  9. #19
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morning Star View Post
    Thank you! Finally someone said it!
    Just as we can't tickle ourselves, we can't love ourselves.

    We need someone to tickle us, and we need someone to love.
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  10. #20
    clever fool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I think the whole "love yourself" thing is overemphasized. What does it even mean?
    I don't understand why it's overemphasized.

    First of all, what does love for others mean? To me, it means love for the personhood of others. So what does love of self mean? Love of self is basically the same thing, applied to one's own personhood. It's basically seeing oneself as a person worthy of love like anyone else. At least that is how I understand it.

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