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  1. #101
    darkened dreams Ravenetta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abendrot View Post
    I disagree with you here: There need be external and objective markers of worthiness. That is not to say that people should not have an independent valuation of themselves, but that people cannot be expected to agree with individuals on their subjective self-valuation.

    Regardless, I do believe that people need to learn how to deal with failure, and how to learn from it, instead of beating themselves up over it.

    Your mother had an interesting style of parenting, one which I'm skeptical of, as I am concerned that it may breed complacency. However if it worked out in your case, that suggests to me that it has its merits. I do like how she made you unafraid of failure, because success is not possible without experimentation and inevitably, failure. I can understand your position better now.
    I have met people who need an external locus of motivation, and I tend to feel sorry for people like that because no one has control over those external markers.

    As far as your skepticism about my mother - not only did she help many young children move from the lowest to the highest reading groups in her classroom with her non-controlling and supportive approach, but even though we grew up in poverty, often running out of money for food, wearing used clothing that church people would drop off in bags, etc. my brother has a Ph.D., I have a doctorate and two master degrees, and my sister has about four master degrees. So with a sample of three she got a 100% result for helping people achieve their highest potential even externally. So your skepticism is completely unfounded and demonstrates a very conventional approach that misses the mark.

    I'm not sure even why you interpreted my description of her approach as praising failure. I said she admired her children and believed they could do anything, but that her love was not dependent on our success. You can believe someone has the capacity to invent and contribute brilliantly in the world, but still love them if they only flip burgers. You can even still believe they are intelligent and capable without equating burger flipping to curing cancer. There is intrinsic worth that does not have to conflict with external, objective measures. It frustrates me to no end how few people have comprehend this because it is necessary and foundational for reaching potential.
    bunny omi

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  2. #102
    one way trip Abendrot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by labyrinthine View Post
    I have met people who need an external locus of motivation, and I tend to feel sorry for people like that because no one has control over those external markers.
    Yes, people do have control, and have the ability to change their external markers. Yes, there are limitations to this statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by labyrinthine View Post
    As far as your skepticism about my mother
    I was not speaking specifically of your mother. I was talking about the general style of parenting employed (that of encouraging children not to fear failure).

    Quote Originally Posted by labyrinthine View Post
    - not only did she help many young children move from the lowest to the highest reading groups in her classroom with her non-controlling and supportive approach, but even though we grew up in poverty, often running out of money for food, wearing used clothing that church people would drop off in bags, etc. my brother has a Ph.D., I have a doctorate and two master degrees, and my sister has about four master degrees. So with a sample of three she got a 100% result for helping people achieve their highest potential even externally.
    Like I said, your specific case suggests that there is some merit to that style of parenting.

    Quote Originally Posted by labyrinthine View Post
    So your skepticism is completely unfounded and demonstrates a very conventional approach that misses the mark.
    You have no right to tell me that I cannot have skepticism about a specific style of parenting because it worked out in your anecdotal case.

    Quote Originally Posted by labyrinthine View Post
    I'm not sure even why you interpreted my description of her approach as praising failure.
    Read my post. I said that she helped to make you unafraid of failure, not that she praised failure. I said that this was a positive thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by labyrinthine View Post
    I said she admired her children and believed they could do anything, but that her love was not dependent on our success. You can believe someone has the capacity to invent and contribute brilliantly in the world, but still love them if they only flip burgers. You can even still believe they are intelligent and capable without equating burger flipping to curing cancer. There is intrinsic worth that does not have to conflict with external, objective measures. It frustrates me to no end how few people have comprehend this because it is necessary and foundational for reaching potential.
    So you are suggesting that it is potential that matters, and not actual contribution or realization of that potential?

    If you intend to make a straw man of my statements, do not request a debate.

  3. #103
    darkened dreams Ravenetta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abendrot View Post
    Yes, people do have control, and have the ability to change their external markers. Yes, there are limitations to this statement.

    I was not speaking specifically of your mother. I was talking about the general style of parenting employed (that of encouraging children not to fear failure).

    Like I said, your specific case suggests that there is some merit to that style of parenting.

    You have no right to tell me that I cannot have skepticism about a specific style of parenting because it worked out in your anecdotal case.

    Read my post. I said that she helped to make you unafraid of failure, not that she praised failure. I said that this was a positive thing.

    So you are suggesting that it is potential that matters, and not actual contribution or realization of that potential?

    If you intend to make a straw man my statements, do not request a debate.
    This article may help mediate this discussion, and it provides more specifics about the different types of praise and acceptance. There are many more points than the quick summary listed below, but it gives a passerby something to consider when reading the rest of the article. Everything below the link is a quote from that link. I'll look for more links to articles online...

    The Effect Of Parents On A Child’s Psychological Development
    "Some people were shown love simply for being who they are, regardless of the right or wrong they did. This is called 'unconditional love' ...

    The opposite of unconditional love is 'conditional love', and this type of love is usually tied to one's performance...

    One of the reasons why conditional love is used so often by parents is because it is usually seen as the best way to encourage a child to do something. Later on in life, conditional love can then result in a highly productive and motivated adult because they will always try to their hardest to do something in order to receive praise or win approval for doing it. Whilst this certainly can be a good characteristic to have, the danger lies in the faxt that their self-esteem is tied to external factors outside of them. So if they are unable to do something well, or fail at something, they will often be left suffering with low levels of self-confidence and self-esteem. This is because for a person who has received conditional love, failure means that they are somehow a bad person who is not worthy of being loved or liked by others. Only success can give them the sense of belongingness and acceptance that every individual craves from the significant people in their life...

    As a result, if something bad does happen to them, they can find it very difficult to deal with and their previously high levels of confidence and self-esteem will come quickly crashing down...

    Self denial ultimately leads to a lack of self-acceptance, because the underlying message being communicated to oneself is that 'what I want is less important than what other people want.'

    Unfortunately, such an attitude leaves that person with very little control over their own emotional state, because how they feel about themselves is ultimately determined by how others feel about them...

    As a result, there are a lot of people who are completley subissive and will do what others tell them to do or expect them to do, at the expense of their own personal ambitions...

    This invariably leads to a lack of fulfillment and satisfaction in life, because even though that person wants to do one thing, they feel as though they are being forced to do something else. "
    bunny omi


  4. #104
    Can't be satisfied. Peter Deadpan's Avatar
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    I accidentally deleted all of my subscribed threads, so I am narcissistically going through all of my old created threads, and as a result, this is the first one I am bumping because there are newer members that I would love to hear from, and the forum has been lacking depth for ages.
    Perpetual mood


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    but to seem to, try to, or try to seem to."


    Philip Trussell


  5. #105
    ฬᎥɬⲥhฯ ฬ๏ოᥑռ Luminous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Deadpan View Post
    So I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and I think I'd like to write an article about it, but it helps me to hear other people's perspectives first and bounce ideas off of one another.

    How do you feel/what do you think when you hear the following claims about love, ***specifically in relation to those dealing with depression:

    "Love yourself before loving another."
    "Love when you're ready, not when you're lonely."
    "No one is going to love you if you don't love yourself."
    "Learn how to be alone and like it."
    Etc., etc., etc....

    A Facebook friend posted the following quote today: "Your relationship with yourself sets the tone for every other relationship you have."
    This was my response:

    " I understand the message, but lately I've been thinking about the ramifications these claims have on people with depression.
    'You can't love someone until you love yourself.'
    'Learn to be happy alone.'
    Etc., Etc....
    While there is certainly truth to these statements, it's simply not that easy for depressed individuals to consistently manifest these thoughts and feelings. They too deserve to be loved. As long as you've worked through any destructive behavior and you're mature enough to treat a potential lover with respect while respecting your own boundaries, then I say you are free to pursue a relationship, preferably with someone who acknowledges and accepts your depression and is willing to do their best to stand next to you when things get a little tough."

    Depression is a sneaky bitch. It comes and it goes and then it comes back again just when you're thinking "oh hey... I think I finally beat this, I've been feeling pretty good for months." It lies to you, and for awhile you believe it. That's why it hurts so fucking bad. Does this mean that you are a failure who doesn't deserve love? My answer is a firm "NO." Some people are inherently more depressed when they are single. Depression also tends to come with a generous portion of guilt and shame. Reinforcing the belief that you are unworthy of love if if you cannot master happiness alone offers little more than a catalyst for darkness for those who suffer from depression.

    Love is not a feeling. Sure, plenty of feelings accompany love, but the wisest amongst us have realized that love is an act; a decision you make repeatedly to your best abilities, even in the face of challenge. It is choosing another person everyday, so long as boundaries are not being crossed in a disrespectful manner. Love is understanding, forgiveness, and holding space for another you care about deeply.

    Here is another personal definition of love I posted to my Facebook page not long ago:

    "You can be broken, with bits of you falling away as you move through this world. When you find someone else, they can be broken too. Together, you can look at the debris behind and around both of you, acknowledging it and proclaiming 'I see your missing pieces and I still love you.' What you CANNOT do, under ANY circumstances, is pick up any fallen pieces of you or your lover and throw it at them. It doesn't matter who originally owned the piece you picked up; you're the one who used it as a weapon. That is not love. That is seeing a void and wanting to use pain to magnify it, and it is fucked up. It's also human, so add it to the rest of the debris and move on.
    If you can do this, and you've found someone you really like who can do this, then congratulations; you've found love."

    Let the discussion begin...
    I agree with you.

    I'll likely read the rest of the thread and come back later, though.
    aka Janet Beattitudes, woman about town. Kicking ass and taking names meekly, with love and respect for her fellow humans.
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  6. #106
    Pasta Goddess ThisName's Avatar
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    I immediately thought about this post;



    In my opinion you don't necessarily have to love yourself in order to receive love or to be able to love.

    I once read a post I kind of agreed with. It said something about the fact that mentally ill people, or people who aren't in the 'right state of mind'/in a bad place, are just more vulnerable. Sometimes that makes it easy for other people to take advantage of them, to be abusive. Because the mentally ill person doesn't acknowledge their self worth or they simply don't realize that it isn't a healthy loving relationship. (Of course, not everyone with a mental illness/or someone who doesn't feel lovable is like this. But I agree that the risk might be higher for them to meet 'the wrong' person. I don't always love myself, but I won't let people walk over me, or let them treat me wrong. I think many people view mentally ill people as people with no spine at all, while that's not -always- true. Only I am allowed to be disrespectful to myself, bich! :'))

    I think that maybe it's easier to deal with a breakup when you do love yourself. But I've always hated the statement that you must love yourself first.
    There was a good post that described how everyone needs love in their life (of course I can't find the post anymore). It's so discouraging and almost degrading towards people who suffer from depression, or people who don't feel lovable to always hear 'ruthless' statements like that.

    Love gives people the ability to grow, is it parental love, friendship, a loving relationship,... People can't grow without love (don't take this all too literally). As a child we learn to see ourselves through the eyes of others, how they perceive us, how we should behave,... It's how our first identity starts to develop. The separation between 'me' and 'I' (according to George Herbert). I can imagine that especially for people who didn't get this love as a child, that it's incredibly hard to feel loved. It's not bad to seek love. Most people are lucky to grow up in a loving home/environment. Of course it is easy for them to say that you 'have to love yourself first'. People who just bluntly spew statements like that, lack empathy imo. Or they are just not trying very hard to be understanding and to come up with original 'advice'.

    So yes, people just have to stop spewing 'opinions' like that. It's not even an opinion, it's just plain laziness without a proper argument. The only thing I could agree with is that it's not healthy to become obsessed with wanting to find love, to dwell on it and to keep thinking about how unloved you are. You gotta get up and do something about it. (Though it's not that easy of course. But I guess that's what people mean when they say 'love yourself first', even though it isn't helpful at all)

    I was looking for the post. It's not this one (I think?) but it's something;
    "For years mental health professionals taught people that they could be psychologically healthy without social support, that ‘unless you love yourself, no one else will love you’ …The truth is, you cannot love yourself unless you have been loved and are loved. The capacity to love cannot be built in isolation."
    — Bruce D. Perry, The Boy Who Was Raised as a Dog

    It's just so ironic. "You don't love yourself? Okay, I will now encourage you to love yourself by telling you how no one will ever love you if you don't love yourself! You lovin' yourself already..?"
    Instead of showing them what love means. It doesn't even have to be in a romantic way, a good friend can change a lot.
    “I can’t explain what I mean. And even if I could, I’m not sure I’d feel like it.”

    - J.D. Salinger, The Catcher in the Rye
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  7. #107
    Can't be satisfied. Peter Deadpan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThisName View Post
    I immediately thought about this post;



    In my opinion you don't necessarily have to love yourself in order to receive love or to be able to love.

    I once read a post I kind of agreed with. It said something about the fact that mentally ill people, or people who aren't in the 'right state of mind'/in a bad place, are just more vulnerable. Sometimes that makes it easy for other people to take advantage of them, to be abusive. Because the mentally ill person doesn't acknowledge their self worth or they simply don't realize that it isn't a healthy loving relationship. (Of course, not everyone with a mental illness/or someone who doesn't feel lovable is like this. But I agree that the risk might be higher for them to meet 'the wrong' person. I don't always love myself, but I won't let people walk over me, or let them treat me wrong. I think many people view mentally ill people as people with no spine at all, while that's not -always- true. Only I am allowed to be disrespectful to myself, bich! :'))

    I think that maybe it's easier to deal with a breakup when you do love yourself. But I've always hated the statement that you must love yourself first.
    There was a good post that described how everyone needs love in their life (of course I can't find the post anymore). It's so discouraging and almost degrading towards people who suffer from depression, or people who don't feel lovable to always hear 'ruthless' statements like that.

    Love gives people the ability to grow, is it parental love, friendship, a loving relationship,... People can't grow without love (don't take this all too literally). As a child we learn to see ourselves through the eyes of others, how they perceive us, how we should behave,... It's how our first identity starts to develop. The separation between 'me' and 'I' (according to George Herbert). I can imagine that especially for people who didn't get this love as a child, that it's incredibly hard to feel loved. It's not bad to seek love. Most people are lucky to grow up in a loving home/environment. Of course it is easy for them to say that you 'have to love yourself first'. People who just bluntly spew statements like that, lack empathy imo. Or they are just not trying very hard to be understanding and to come up with original 'advice'.

    So yes, people just have to stop spewing 'opinions' like that. It's not even an opinion, it's just plain laziness without a proper argument. The only thing I could agree with is that it's not healthy to become obsessed with wanting to find love, to dwell on it and to keep thinking about how unloved you are. You gotta get up and do something about it. (Though it's not that easy of course. But I guess that's what people mean when they say 'love yourself first', even though it isn't helpful at all)

    I was looking for the post. It's not this one (I think?) but it's something;
    "For years mental health professionals taught people that they could be psychologically healthy without social support, that ‘unless you love yourself, no one else will love you’ …The truth is, you cannot love yourself unless you have been loved and are loved. The capacity to love cannot be built in isolation."
    — Bruce D. Perry, The Boy Who Was Raised as a Dog

    It's just so ironic. "You don't love yourself? Okay, I will now encourage you to love yourself by telling you how no one will ever love you if you don't love yourself! You lovin' yourself already..?"
    Instead of showing them what love means. It doesn't even have to be in a romantic way, a good friend can change a lot.
    Somebody finally gets it.
    Perpetual mood


    "It is not the personality's task to tell the truth,
    but to seem to, try to, or try to seem to."


    Philip Trussell

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  8. #108

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    IMO, love is like a bowel movement since it simply happens, whether you consider yourself worthy or not. As long as you treat your partner well, it's all good. That said, the only issue is that if you treat your partner poorly, then that's when the unworthiness judgment rears its head.

  9. #109
    Somber and irritated cascadeco's Avatar
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    I think phrases like in the OP have truths but are also so overused that all kinds of gray areas are ignored.

    I do think that people who are prone to codependency can just be setting themselves up for unhealthy relationships if they in fact aren't ok on their own, but at the end of the day most people aren't going to overcome any tendencies they have and so trying to encourage the codependent person to try being on their own for a while may be futile and maybe they're super happy in whatever dynamic they have as they feel good about themselves whilst in it. Codependency isn't the only thing that I think can apply to the op phrases, but it's one example where I think there can be some truth.

    But that said, I think these phrases are sometimes said from the smug scaffolding up high by observers. I also sometimes wonder how many people who espouse these phrases and ideals have actually been single for years on end, for example. Would they actually legitimately be able to say these things if they've in fact never actually been on their own for a considerable length of time? How many of these people may have only had ' time to love themselves ' and to be at peace being alone for, like, three months, or whatever? I often wonder this. Do people who stress these things feel if they've been totally cool being single and learned to be ok with it for a handful of months before they fall into another romance that the same applies for those who have experienced it for years on end? I just wonder.

    In summary I agree that without being at peace with oneself, one may be disposed to put all of one's happiness on the pedestal of their partner/relationship, which I don't think is a great thing; or one may not come to know oneself very well -I think all kinds of valuable things can unfold when being on your own for a while. But also humans are social and we need one another too, and there's nothing particularly glorious or extra special about being a lone wolf, either. We learn nothing about ourselves in the context of how we are with others when being by ourselves.

    Edit: I also think these phrases can be things said by those in relationships who are trying to frame things in a better light for people who are single, or might be ideals that are 'taken on' by those who are single and trying to make themselves feel better or feel affirmed by their own life choices.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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