Debate: Worthiness of Love and Depression

[Siúil a Rúin]

I disagree with you here: There need be external and objective markers of worthiness. That is not to say that people should not have an independent valuation of themselves, but that people cannot be expected to agree with individuals on their subjective self-valuation.

Regardless, I do believe that people need to learn how to deal with failure, and how to learn from it, instead of beating themselves up over it.

Your mother had an interesting style of parenting, one which I'm skeptical of, as I am concerned that it may breed complacency. However if it worked out in your case, that suggests to me that it has its merits. I do like how she made you unafraid of failure, because success is not possible without experimentation and inevitably, failure. I can understand your position better now.

I have met people who need an external locus of motivation, and I tend to feel sorry for people like that because no one has control over those external markers.

As far as your skepticism about my mother - not only did she help many young children move from the lowest to the highest reading groups in her classroom with her non-controlling and supportive approach, but even though we grew up in poverty, often running out of money for food, wearing used clothing that church people would drop off in bags, etc. my brother has a Ph.D., I have a doctorate and two master degrees, and my sister has about four master degrees. So with a sample of three she got a 100% result for helping people achieve their highest potential even externally. So your skepticism is completely unfounded and demonstrates a very conventional approach that misses the mark.

I'm not sure even why you interpreted my description of her approach as praising failure. I said she admired her children and believed they could do anything, but that her love was not dependent on our success. You can believe someone has the capacity to invent and contribute brilliantly in the world, but still love them if they only flip burgers. You can even still believe they are intelligent and capable without equating burger flipping to curing cancer. There is intrinsic worth that does not have to conflict with external, objective measures. It frustrates me to no end how few people have comprehend this because it is necessary and foundational for reaching potential.

 

[Abendrot]

I have met people who need an external locus of motivation, and I tend to feel sorry for people like that because no one has control over those external markers.

Yes, people do have control, and have the ability to change their external markers. Yes, there are limitations to this statement.

As far as your skepticism about my mother

I was not speaking specifically of your mother. I was talking about the general style of parenting employed (that of encouraging children not to fear failure).

- not only did she help many young children move from the lowest to the highest reading groups in her classroom with her non-controlling and supportive approach, but even though we grew up in poverty, often running out of money for food, wearing used clothing that church people would drop off in bags, etc. my brother has a Ph.D., I have a doctorate and two master degrees, and my sister has about four master degrees. So with a sample of three she got a 100% result for helping people achieve their highest potential even externally.

Like I said, your specific case suggests that there is some merit to that style of parenting.

So your skepticism is completely unfounded and demonstrates a very conventional approach that misses the mark.

You have no right to tell me that I cannot have skepticism about a specific style of parenting because it worked out in your anecdotal case.

I'm not sure even why you interpreted my description of her approach as praising failure.

Read my post. I said that she helped to make you unafraid of failure, not that she praised failure. I said that this was a positive thing.

I said she admired her children and believed they could do anything, but that her love was not dependent on our success. You can believe someone has the capacity to invent and contribute brilliantly in the world, but still love them if they only flip burgers. You can even still believe they are intelligent and capable without equating burger flipping to curing cancer. There is intrinsic worth that does not have to conflict with external, objective measures. It frustrates me to no end how few people have comprehend this because it is necessary and foundational for reaching potential.

So you are suggesting that it is potential that matters, and not actual contribution or realization of that potential?

If you intend to make a straw man of my statements, do not request a debate.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Yes, people do have control, and have the ability to change their external markers. Yes, there are limitations to this statement.

I was not speaking specifically of your mother. I was talking about the general style of parenting employed (that of encouraging children not to fear failure).

Like I said, your specific case suggests that there is some merit to that style of parenting.

You have no right to tell me that I cannot have skepticism about a specific style of parenting because it worked out in your anecdotal case.

Read my post. I said that she helped to make you unafraid of failure, not that she praised failure. I said that this was a positive thing.

So you are suggesting that it is potential that matters, and not actual contribution or realization of that potential?

If you intend to make a straw man my statements, do not request a debate.

This article may help mediate this discussion, and it provides more specifics about the different types of praise and acceptance. There are many more points than the quick summary listed below, but it gives a passerby something to consider when reading the rest of the article. Everything below the link is a quote from that link. I'll look for more links to articles online...

The Effect Of Parents On A Child’s Psychological Development
"Some people were shown love simply for being who they are, regardless of the right or wrong they did. This is called 'unconditional love' ...

The opposite of unconditional love is 'conditional love', and this type of love is usually tied to one's performance...

One of the reasons why conditional love is used so often by parents is because it is usually seen as the best way to encourage a child to do something. Later on in life, conditional love can then result in a highly productive and motivated adult because they will always try to their hardest to do something in order to receive praise or win approval for doing it. Whilst this certainly can be a good characteristic to have, the danger lies in the faxt that their self-esteem is tied to external factors outside of them. So if they are unable to do something well, or fail at something, they will often be left suffering with low levels of self-confidence and self-esteem. This is because for a person who has received conditional love, failure means that they are somehow a bad person who is not worthy of being loved or liked by others. Only success can give them the sense of belongingness and acceptance that every individual craves from the significant people in their life...

As a result, if something bad does happen to them, they can find it very difficult to deal with and their previously high levels of confidence and self-esteem will come quickly crashing down...

Self denial ultimately leads to a lack of self-acceptance, because the underlying message being communicated to oneself is that 'what I want is less important than what other people want.'

Unfortunately, such an attitude leaves that person with very little control over their own emotional state, because how they feel about themselves is ultimately determined by how others feel about them...

As a result, there are a lot of people who are completley subissive and will do what others tell them to do or expect them to do, at the expense of their own personal ambitions...

This invariably leads to a lack of fulfillment and satisfaction in life, because even though that person wants to do one thing, they feel as though they are being forced to do something else. "

 

[Peter Deadpan]

I accidentally deleted all of my subscribed threads, so I am narcissistically going through all of my old created threads, and as a result, this is the first one I am bumping because there are newer members that I would love to hear from, and the forum has been lacking depth for ages.

 

[Luminous]

So I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and I think I'd like to write an article about it, but it helps me to hear other people's perspectives first and bounce ideas off of one another.

How do you feel/what do you think when you hear the following claims about love, ***specifically in relation to those dealing with depression:

"Love yourself before loving another."
"Love when you're ready, not when you're lonely."
"No one is going to love you if you don't love yourself."
"Learn how to be alone and like it."
Etc., etc., etc....

A Facebook friend posted the following quote today: "Your relationship with yourself sets the tone for every other relationship you have."
This was my response:

" I understand the message, but lately I've been thinking about the ramifications these claims have on people with depression.
'You can't love someone until you love yourself.'
'Learn to be happy alone.'
Etc., Etc....
While there is certainly truth to these statements, it's simply not that easy for depressed individuals to consistently manifest these thoughts and feelings. They too deserve to be loved. As long as you've worked through any destructive behavior and you're mature enough to treat a potential lover with respect while respecting your own boundaries, then I say you are free to pursue a relationship, preferably with someone who acknowledges and accepts your depression and is willing to do their best to stand next to you when things get a little tough."

Depression is a sneaky bitch. It comes and it goes and then it comes back again just when you're thinking "oh hey... I think I finally beat this, I've been feeling pretty good for months." It lies to you, and for awhile you believe it. That's why it hurts so fucking bad. Does this mean that you are a failure who doesn't deserve love? My answer is a firm "NO." Some people are inherently more depressed when they are single. Depression also tends to come with a generous portion of guilt and shame. Reinforcing the belief that you are unworthy of love if if you cannot master happiness alone offers little more than a catalyst for darkness for those who suffer from depression.

Love is not a feeling. Sure, plenty of feelings accompany love, but the wisest amongst us have realized that love is an act; a decision you make repeatedly to your best abilities, even in the face of challenge. It is choosing another person everyday, so long as boundaries are not being crossed in a disrespectful manner. Love is understanding, forgiveness, and holding space for another you care about deeply.

Here is another personal definition of love I posted to my Facebook page not long ago:

"You can be broken, with bits of you falling away as you move through this world. When you find someone else, they can be broken too. Together, you can look at the debris behind and around both of you, acknowledging it and proclaiming 'I see your missing pieces and I still love you.' What you CANNOT do, under ANY circumstances, is pick up any fallen pieces of you or your lover and throw it at them. It doesn't matter who originally owned the piece you picked up; you're the one who used it as a weapon. That is not love. That is seeing a void and wanting to use pain to magnify it, and it is fucked up. It's also human, so add it to the rest of the debris and move on.
If you can do this, and you've found someone you really like who can do this, then congratulations; you've found love."

Let the discussion begin...

I agree with you.

I'll likely read the rest of the thread and come back later, though.

 

[Schrödinger's Name]

I immediately thought about this post;

In my opinion you don't necessarily have to love yourself in order to receive love or to be able to love.

I once read a post I kind of agreed with. It said something about the fact that mentally ill people, or people who aren't in the 'right state of mind'/in a bad place, are just more vulnerable. Sometimes that makes it easy for other people to take advantage of them, to be abusive. Because the mentally ill person doesn't acknowledge their self worth or they simply don't realize that it isn't a healthy loving relationship. (Of course, not everyone with a mental illness/or someone who doesn't feel lovable is like this. But I agree that the risk might be higher for them to meet 'the wrong' person. I don't always love myself, but I won't let people walk over me, or let them treat me wrong. I think many people view mentally ill people as people with no spine at all, while that's not -always- true. Only I am allowed to be disrespectful to myself, bich! :'))

I think that maybe it's easier to deal with a breakup when you do love yourself. But I've always hated the statement that you must love yourself first.
There was a good post that described how everyone needs love in their life (of course I can't find the post anymore). It's so discouraging and almost degrading towards people who suffer from depression, or people who don't feel lovable to always hear 'ruthless' statements like that.

Love gives people the ability to grow, is it parental love, friendship, a loving relationship,... People can't grow without love (don't take this all too literally). As a child we learn to see ourselves through the eyes of others, how they perceive us, how we should behave,... It's how our first identity starts to develop. The separation between 'me' and 'I' (according to George Herbert). I can imagine that especially for people who didn't get this love as a child, that it's incredibly hard to feel loved. It's not bad to seek love. Most people are lucky to grow up in a loving home/environment. Of course it is easy for them to say that you 'have to love yourself first'. People who just bluntly spew statements like that, lack empathy imo. Or they are just not trying very hard to be understanding and to come up with original 'advice'.

So yes, people just have to stop spewing 'opinions' like that. It's not even an opinion, it's just plain laziness without a proper argument. The only thing I could agree with is that it's not healthy to become obsessed with wanting to find love, to dwell on it and to keep thinking about how unloved you are. You gotta get up and do something about it. (Though it's not that easy of course. But I guess that's what people mean when they say 'love yourself first', even though it isn't helpful at all)

I was looking for the post. It's not this one (I think?) but it's something;
"For years mental health professionals taught people that they could be psychologically healthy without social support, that ‘unless you love yourself, no one else will love you’ …The truth is, you cannot love yourself unless you have been loved and are loved. The capacity to love cannot be built in isolation."
— Bruce D. Perry, The Boy Who Was Raised as a Dog

It's just so ironic. "You don't love yourself? Okay, I will now encourage you to love yourself by telling you how no one will ever love you if you don't love yourself! You lovin' yourself already..?"
Instead of showing them what love means. It doesn't even have to be in a romantic way, a good friend can change a lot.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

I immediately thought about this post;

In my opinion you don't necessarily have to love yourself in order to receive love or to be able to love.

I once read a post I kind of agreed with. It said something about the fact that mentally ill people, or people who aren't in the 'right state of mind'/in a bad place, are just more vulnerable. Sometimes that makes it easy for other people to take advantage of them, to be abusive. Because the mentally ill person doesn't acknowledge their self worth or they simply don't realize that it isn't a healthy loving relationship. (Of course, not everyone with a mental illness/or someone who doesn't feel lovable is like this. But I agree that the risk might be higher for them to meet 'the wrong' person. I don't always love myself, but I won't let people walk over me, or let them treat me wrong. I think many people view mentally ill people as people with no spine at all, while that's not -always- true. Only I am allowed to be disrespectful to myself, bich! :'))

I think that maybe it's easier to deal with a breakup when you do love yourself. But I've always hated the statement that you must love yourself first.
There was a good post that described how everyone needs love in their life (of course I can't find the post anymore). It's so discouraging and almost degrading towards people who suffer from depression, or people who don't feel lovable to always hear 'ruthless' statements like that.

Love gives people the ability to grow, is it parental love, friendship, a loving relationship,... People can't grow without love (don't take this all too literally). As a child we learn to see ourselves through the eyes of others, how they perceive us, how we should behave,... It's how our first identity starts to develop. The separation between 'me' and 'I' (according to George Herbert). I can imagine that especially for people who didn't get this love as a child, that it's incredibly hard to feel loved. It's not bad to seek love. Most people are lucky to grow up in a loving home/environment. Of course it is easy for them to say that you 'have to love yourself first'. People who just bluntly spew statements like that, lack empathy imo. Or they are just not trying very hard to be understanding and to come up with original 'advice'.

So yes, people just have to stop spewing 'opinions' like that. It's not even an opinion, it's just plain laziness without a proper argument. The only thing I could agree with is that it's not healthy to become obsessed with wanting to find love, to dwell on it and to keep thinking about how unloved you are. You gotta get up and do something about it. (Though it's not that easy of course. But I guess that's what people mean when they say 'love yourself first', even though it isn't helpful at all)

I was looking for the post. It's not this one (I think?) but it's something;
"For years mental health professionals taught people that they could be psychologically healthy without social support, that ‘unless you love yourself, no one else will love you’ …The truth is, you cannot love yourself unless you have been loved and are loved. The capacity to love cannot be built in isolation."
— Bruce D. Perry, The Boy Who Was Raised as a Dog

It's just so ironic. "You don't love yourself? Okay, I will now encourage you to love yourself by telling you how no one will ever love you if you don't love yourself! You lovin' yourself already..?"
Instead of showing them what love means. It doesn't even have to be in a romantic way, a good friend can change a lot.

Somebody finally gets it.

 

[rav3n]

IMO, love is like a bowel movement since it simply happens, whether you consider yourself worthy or not. As long as you treat your partner well, it's all good. That said, the only issue is that if you treat your partner poorly, then that's when the unworthiness judgment rears its head.

 

[cascadeco]

I think phrases like in the OP have truths but are also so overused that all kinds of gray areas are ignored.

I do think that people who are prone to codependency can just be setting themselves up for unhealthy relationships if they in fact aren't ok on their own, but at the end of the day most people aren't going to overcome any tendencies they have and so trying to encourage the codependent person to try being on their own for a while may be futile and maybe they're super happy in whatever dynamic they have as they feel good about themselves whilst in it. Codependency isn't the only thing that I think can apply to the op phrases, but it's one example where I think there can be some truth.

But that said, I think these phrases are sometimes said from the smug scaffolding up high by observers. I also sometimes wonder how many people who espouse these phrases and ideals have actually been single for years on end, for example. Would they actually legitimately be able to say these things if they've in fact never actually been on their own for a considerable length of time? How many of these people may have only had ' time to love themselves ' and to be at peace being alone for, like, three months, or whatever? I often wonder this. Do people who stress these things feel if they've been totally cool being single and learned to be ok with it for a handful of months before they fall into another romance that the same applies for those who have experienced it for years on end? I just wonder.

In summary I agree that without being at peace with oneself, one may be disposed to put all of one's happiness on the pedestal of their partner/relationship, which I don't think is a great thing; or one may not come to know oneself very well -I think all kinds of valuable things can unfold when being on your own for a while. But also humans are social and we need one another too, and there's nothing particularly glorious or extra special about being a lone wolf, either. We learn nothing about ourselves in the context of how we are with others when being by ourselves.

Edit: I also think these phrases can be things said by those in relationships who are trying to frame things in a better light for people who are single, or might be ideals that are 'taken on' by those who are single and trying to make themselves feel better or feel affirmed by their own life choices.

 

[Mind Maverick]

Digging this up because I thought it was interesting. I have never agreed with the statement that "you have to love yourself before you can love others." Despite my opinion being an unpopular one because I disagree with it, it's just never made any sense to me and I LOVE Magic Poriferan's post because it perfectly captured my own reasons why and then some.

Fair warning, this strikes a nerve for me, and I'm practically just writing my own OP (although I did read the actual OP).

The statement "you cannot loves others until you love yourself", and all of its paraphrasings, is one of the worst aphorisms I've ever known. Among my all time most hated, probably along with just world hypotheses and maybe a few others I'm not thinking of right now.

1: It makes no sense.
2: It is more harmful than helpful.

Let's break both of those down.

1.
The statement does not explain itself. You are supposed to just accept that it's true. But why? I cannot seem to connect A to B here. Loving others requires me to love myself because...? It is patently obvious that an individual's relationship with others, of any kind, whether it be feelings, or actions, or whatever, is not necessarily a mirror of their relationship to themselves. Hell, it probably usually isn't. I would think you only have to do cursory analysis of anyone else's relationships, or the history of your own, to know this is true. If it's not generally true, then some kind of reasoning must be given specific to love. Why does love always match one's attitude toward the self? If love if is a feeling, I don't see why that would hold. I'm pretty sure I've loved other people more than I've loved myself... hell, I'm pretty sure I've loved cats more than I love myself. Am I supposed to just take the word of someone who's never been in my head that I don't feel what I'm fairly confident I felt? Fuck that. There's no reason to give their word more credibility, and there is still no logical explanation here.

What if it's not a feeling but an action or a system of actions? That holds even less water because it's more demonstrably false. People constantly do for others what they do not do for themselves. It's practically the definition of being a parent. And if what we're boiling love down to actions, my idea of a loving action is a giving one, which is basically directed away from the ego by definition. If your idea of love is defined in terms of actions, and you think you have to love yourself to love other people, that basically means you'd never give anyone 5 bucks unless you first made sure you got 5 bucks and balanced out the loss. That sounds more like being a selfish prick than loving other people, to me. In other words, this would make you less loving toward other people.

So back to square one. Which part of loving other people operationally depends on some part of loving myself to already be in place?

2.
If put into practice, this formulation is almost perfectly designed to make people do the wrong thing.

First of all, it only hurts people who have low self-esteem. I think this is the main thing to OP is getting at. Suppose someone isn't feeling good about themselves, and you tell them that they are incapable of engaging in one of the most meaningful parts of life and something that tends to be deemed fundamentally good and even a measure of a what good person is. How is that supposed to work? You're basically going up to someone with a low self-esteem, and telling them, "hey, because of your low self-esteem, you're going to miss one of the most important parts of life, and you're a broken, kind of shitty person" You've just given them another reason to feel bad about themselves, and if you've made a death spiral, because you just told them to feel bad about feeling bad about themselves. Furthermore, that statement is entirely disempowering. It tells them what they can't do, doesn't tell them anything they can do. Which is the second thing.

This statement is devoid of useful suggestions. It's all about detailing how your affliction will ruin you, and nothing about how to treat the affliction. If a person has self-esteem problems, it's a pretty safe guess they aren't sure how to develop self-esteem. Perhaps you should try telling them how to do that, instead of idiotically telling they might want to do that. No shit. It's like saying "I really think you should stop being sick". I find most people who like to throw this wisdom around are kind of dry wells when it comes to suggestions for how to actually deal with low self-esteem itself, rendering them virtually useless.

So if you're keeping track, what we're doing so far, is telling a person who feels bad about themselves that feeling bad about themselves gives them even more reason to feel bad about themselves, though we cannot explain why, and we have no suggestions about how they should actually stop feeling bad about themselves.

Unfortunately that's all. It's also harmful in an entirely separate way. That's because this notion has a corollary (though, technically, not a logically necessary one, just an intuitive one apparently). The corollary is that, if someone is unloving, even hateful, it means they don't love themselves. And that means, getting someone to love themselves might be a solution to making them more loving. And this is a terrible, terrible idea. In the final sense, it basically means you should give emotional support to sociopaths. See someone being a dick? Make them feel good about themselves. This is what lead to the ludicrous, fuck-up of an idea that if you just automatically try inject everyone with self-esteem preemptively, you'll cut down failure and abuse. Start with kids, they'll get good grades and stop bullying. But it's never worked. And it's probably made everything worse.

The idea can also be self-servingly abused firsthand. If I have to love myself before I can love anyone else, then you're all on the back burner until I love myself. When will that be? As I've pointed out, nobody knows. It's not an operational idea. So, you can't tell me I'm wrong if I state that I'm still striving toward loving myself for an indefinite period of time. It could take the rest of my life. Fuck you, I can't love you yet, I'm still working on loving myself.

...

I'm almost done here, but let me just preempt some of the defense of the aphorism. There's a typical way I see it defended. That is to redefine love, and then re-redefine love, and then re-re-redefine love, etc.. until it has no meaning at all, and thus can mean anything you want it to mean, and the statement becomes unassailable. Unfortunately it also makes it useless in its meaninglessness. If this thread picks up steam and starts an argument, I'll be damned if that doesn't happen.

Also, if you've known people with low self-esteem, and you've told them this, and they don't like it, perhaps that's a clue that this isn't very good advice. You should take feedback from people you're trying to help. if you're really trying to help them. I often get the sense that people are far more invested in defending this idea or themselves for saying it than they are in helping in anyone. Like, for some reason I can't perceive, this is for them much more than it's for any of the unhappy people they are saying it to.

...

Okay. I could probably spend all day adding more and more criticism onto this, but I think I got the urge out of my system. I guess I'll wind it down with this last thought.

Chronically low self-esteem is exhausting. It's really exhausting to try helping someone with that problem, I'm aware of that from both sides of the relationship. So when it comes to counseling a person with low self-esteem, ask yourself these questions before you say or do anything.

Do I really want to do this?
Am I cutout for doing this effectively?
Can I afford to bother with doing this?

If the answer to any of those is no, just don't try to help. You and the person with the self-esteem problems will be better for it.

EDIT: Given the speed at which I typed this, it probably has more errors than I feel like dealing with right now. Sorry.

---

"No one is going to love you if you don't love yourself."

Really? So now we're telling people that nobody loves them because they hate themselves? Shut the fuck up.

---

As for self-love...several people saying they don't get self-love, but I think that's just it: people don't get it. Self-love is caring about yourself and treating yourself well as a human being. Self-love is shutting up the inner critic and not believing every word it says. Self-love is, sometimes, contrary to the "have to love yourself to love others" assumption, caring about yourself in the same way you care about other people you love. You have no ill will toward them, you don't abuse them, you don't call them names or beat them up over every little mistake or flaw. When you love yourself it engenders greater confidence, self-esteem, taking care of yourself and your needs because you care about yourself, understanding and compassion for yourself when it's needed, empathy, respect, and so on.

If people actually looked into self-love before talking about it they would never call it something like "narcissism," which is a ridiculous statement. There is nothing narcissistic about being good to yourself.

---

"Love when you're ready, not when you're lonely."

"Learn how to be alone and like it."

Why can't you be ready when you're lonely again? Being lonely is not the same thing as getting with someone out of desperation. If you're suffering from loneliness you can't solve your problem by going and finding loving relationships? You have to stay desolate until you like it? That is literally impossible sometimes if we're including love as in friendship, family, etc. Humans are social creatures by nature, we aren't meant to be islands and if we are living as an island...good luck not being lonely.

 

[RadicalDoubt]

How do you feel/what do you think when you hear the following claims about love, ***specifically in relation to those dealing with depression:

"Love yourself before loving another."
"Love when you're ready, not when you're lonely."

I think, as someone with depression and someone who has watched people in depression get themselves into especially unhealthy situations that it is incredibly important to consider these when looking for some forms of love. This is tough in a sense to think about, because realistically there are so many different types of "love," be it love for friends or romantic love or familial love etc. In one sense, especially for those with depression, self love is a task that often seems all but impossible. Feeling self worth can be difficult to have, but you can love and care for others in a healthy way without it. For some people, it takes that affirmation and feeling of being loved to feel self worth and, even if that kind of sucks and at a theoretical level you should be able to love yourself without someone else, in genuine circumstances I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing.

Since these do specifically seem to be used in more romantic implications, it's important to remember that looking for love and affection when you are in a position of self hatred and lacking self acceptance can put you at risk for getting manipulated and abused by others who mistake this trait or depression as a weakness or opening for control. At the very least, if not self love you need boundaries and some degree of self worth prior to looking for love or affection in someone else. In the same light, depression and self hatred can lead to very unhealthy and self harming behavior that can also be very harmful to those who come to love you, even if you love them back. It's important to make sure that your lack of love for yourself doesn't lead to a situation that is both harmful to the self and harmful to the object of affection if that makes sense at all. Hence, these two are more reasonable if you consider "self love" to be "a basic sense of self worth" rather than genuinely loving oneself and ones traits....

"No one is going to love you if you don't love yourself."
"Learn how to be alone and like it."
Etc., etc., etc....

These two in particular have always sounded more like threats than helpful statements. I can assure you that you can be loved without loving yourself (although maybe you will struggle to recognize the feeling of someone loving you without the ability to see yourself in any positive light). For those who are particularly sensitive or very deep into depression, I have seen this particular statement do far more harm than it does good.

The last one I also think is not a necessity. Some people are, by nature, very relationally oriented (ie. they love people, love relationships, love the feeling of connection, etc). Some people really aren't cut out for being alone and struggle to ever be such and, honestly, that's incredibly human. Of course you should learn to cultivate yourself and your interests outside of your connections to others in a way that's very much connected to independence, however I think it's perfectly fine to desire to be connected to things or others. I think this comment can come across as "shaming" the relational oriented (or at least that's what I've heard from those who are in terms of this sentiment) and I don't think it's ok to shame people for a natural urge.

 

[Mind Maverick]

"No one is going to love you if you don't love yourself."

Welp, I guess if you don't love yourself as a child because of how your parents treated you then you're fucked and can't be loved by a new family that adopts you or something, right? Better learn that self-love in elementary school because you're going to need it to get the support you need throughout life. Lots of foster kids, orphans, traumatized kids out there that can't be loved.

Dumb. Show the child love and they learn to love themselves.

 

[Mind Maverick]

On a quick side note...when I went to the inpatient psychiatric facility we had a group activity and "No one is going to love you if you don't love yourself" came up. I was the only one in the room who disagreed with it, everyone else (maybe 10-15 people?) was agreeing. Yet, on here...it's the unpopular opinion. That psychiatric facility is specifically for those who are either suicidal or homicidal, by the way...how much do you love yourself if you're suicidal? Hmm. I just thought I'd share because it was an interesting survey.

 

[Red Memories]

On a quick side note...when I went to the inpatient psychiatric facility we had a group activity and "No one is going to love you if you don't love yourself" came up. I was the only one in the room who disagreed with it, everyone else (maybe 10-15 people?) was agreeing. Yet, on here...it's the unpopular opinion. That psychiatric facility is specifically for those who are either suicidal or homicidal, by the way...how much do you love yourself if you're suicidal? Hmm. I just thought I'd share because it was an interesting survey.

I actually disagree with this too (I've also been inpatient before woops...) as I've found over time having people who loved me and actually treated me lovingly has improved my belief in myself. Sometimes you really need that little nudge from another person. To not just feel like you're a little ant in a big world of nothing.

 

[Mind Maverick]

I actually disagree with this too (I've also been inpatient before woops...) as I've found over time having people who loved me and actually treated me lovingly has improved my belief in myself. Sometimes you really need that little nudge from another person. To not just feel like you're a little ant in a big world of nothing.

I see. And yeah, exactly. The only reason I even disagreed at that time was because others loved me and I didn't really love myself. Lol. I feel like that's helped me love myself too. Although...according to my therapy session that just ended a few minutes ago I still don't have this quite down yet

 

[Mind Maverick]

If people think you have to love yourself before others love you, yet also think suicide is selfish, their beliefs contradict each other. If someone suicidal doesn't love themselves, nobody else loves them, therefore who could they be hurting and how could it be selfish? As long as they don't love themselves it can't be selfish. And how could it be true that a suicidal person who doesn't love themselves hurts anyone if no one loves them? This common saying "you have to love yourself before anyone else will love you" is one of the least insightful popular statements I know of.

 

[Sacrophagus]

"Love yourself before loving another."

That's what they think it should be, but that's not how it works. Thankfully, humans are not really the ones to set the rules. We're merely spectators in a sense.


"Love yourself before loving someone else" is not an obligation. If you have it within you, so be it, if you rather love someone deserving, so be it.

Relationships come in so many ways, so many different dynamics. If I'm to observe my patterns, I tend to fall in love with selfless women who rather love others than loving themselves, and they own it with a passion. I call them crazy cunts and I can't help but be there to protect them and be a shoulder on which they will rest. Such is life.

On the other hand, you will find others who are subconsciously attracted to abusive narcissistic people, probably because of their past conditioning when they were still a child. A longing for an egotistical parent to accept them. Thankfully, many break out of this circle after much struggle or hopefully are self-aware of that illusion.

A depressed person will find love too, but the way I see it is that it will take the right person, for the best, instead of the depressed person struggling to forcefully love themselves in a state of denial instead of healing slowly but surely. The right person is the one who will take a hit from you even in your stormy days but will keep on loving you not because they desperately need you, but because your bond is not frail, and will probably support you until you make sense of what you're doing.

I've been in depression myself, and I thankfully was always picky about the people I surround myself with. It is as though I did everything in that state to drive them away to drown in a pit of melancholy and self-loathing, but they remained there.
If no one is there, that is fine too. The point is to embrace your depression, accept it, not see it as something that will weigh you down, and carry forward in the healing path. Don't force yourself to always smile, don't force yourself to fake happiness, simply assume responsibility, and accept who you are in that moment.

I found my first love when I was depressed. I was far from someone who loved himself. *laughs*
I did accept what I was going through and never apologized for who I am.

 

[Maou]

Im 14 and this is deep.jpeg

I think the phrases are an oversimplified versions of a collection of lessons on self love.

"Love yourself, before someone else" is probably based on the idea of acceptance. Relationships are not perfect, everyone has flaws. You must be able to accept your flaws, before you are really capable of accepting others. It is about approach and mindset before going in.