Why god let's bad things happen

[small.wonder]

[MENTION=24057]draon9[/MENTION] To the OP, my two cents:

God allows suffering because it builds people of strong character, who can love people well. How many times have you met a strikingly honest, compassionate, peaceful, emotionally healthy person and found that they credit their hard life experiences for their growth and maturity? I have experienced and observed this a lot. Even throughout humanity and history (religion aside), we see this theme repeated, because it's true-- enduring trials builds wisdom, experience and compassion for others who suffer.

This guy named Paul (who would know, because he had a crazy life story) puts it like this, in the Bible: "Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us." -Romans 5:3-5

For anyone reading this, and whatever spiritual beliefs you hold (or don't) you have to admit that the above is a pretty fool proof strategy for a full, meaningful life. Someone once told me that one of the most important relationships we will ever have in life, is our relationship with suffering-- if you allow it to grow you, and see it as producing an eventual good (which for me is not hard, because looking back on my life, it's true), then nothing can harm or bring you down. Not even death, not even a disease, or torture. There are some pretty artificial, legalistic believers in God out there, but I'm being totally honest when I say that the real ones, those who live their lives to love others (because God loves them), are the most counter-culture, bulletproof, content-in-any-situation people I've ever known.

So yeah, that's my take (and personal experience) on why God allows suffering.

 

[draon9]

[MENTION=24057]draon9[/MENTION] To the OP, my two cents:

God allows suffering because it builds people of strong character, who can love people well. How many times have you met a strikingly honest, compassionate, peaceful, emotionally healthy person and found that they credit their hard life experiences for their growth and maturity? I have experienced and observed this a lot. Even throughout humanity and history (religion aside), we see this theme repeated, because it's true-- enduring trials builds wisdom, experience and compassion for others who suffer.

This guy named Paul (who would know, because he had a crazy life story) puts it like this, in the Bible: "Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us." -Romans 5:3-5

For anyone reading this, and whatever spiritual beliefs you hold (or don't) you have to admit that the above is a pretty fool proof strategy for a full, meaningful life. Someone once told me that one of the most important relationships we will ever have in life, is our relationship with suffering-- if you allow it to grow you, and see it as producing an eventual good (which for me is not hard, because looking back on my life, it's true), then nothing can harm or bring you down. Not even death, not even a disease, or torture. There are some pretty artificial, legalistic believers in God out there, but I'm being totally honest when I say that the real ones, those who live their lives to love others (because God loves them), are the most counter-culture, bulletproof, content-in-any-situation people I've ever known.

So yeah, that's my take (and personal experience) on why God allows suffering.

We are saying the same thing except if you allow the suffering to grow.

 

[Lark]

[MENTION=24057]draon9[/MENTION] To the OP, my two cents:

God allows suffering because it builds people of strong character, who can love people well. How many times have you met a strikingly honest, compassionate, peaceful, emotionally healthy person and found that they credit their hard life experiences for their growth and maturity? I have experienced and observed this a lot. Even throughout humanity and history (religion aside), we see this theme repeated, because it's true-- enduring trials builds wisdom, experience and compassion for others who suffer.

This guy named Paul (who would know, because he had a crazy life story) puts it like this, in the Bible: "Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us." -Romans 5:3-5

For anyone reading this, and whatever spiritual beliefs you hold (or don't) you have to admit that the above is a pretty fool proof strategy for a full, meaningful life. Someone once told me that one of the most important relationships we will ever have in life, is our relationship with suffering-- if you allow it to grow you, and see it as producing an eventual good (which for me is not hard, because looking back on my life, it's true), then nothing can harm or bring you down. Not even death, not even a disease, or torture. There are some pretty artificial, legalistic believers in God out there, but I'm being totally honest when I say that the real ones, those who live their lives to love others (because God loves them), are the most counter-culture, bulletproof, content-in-any-situation people I've ever known.

So yeah, that's my take (and personal experience) on why God allows suffering.

This is a good post, on the other hand I dont believe that God in human history has been quietist or quite so stoic, Jesus, who I believe was God incarnate, and the prophets before, and the saints since, were all pretty prescriptive about how to avoid suffering and that God did not like suffering.

It can serve a purpose but believing that this makes suffering good is masochistic, something which is human, all too human, rather than divine.

 

[small.wonder]

This is a good post, on the other hand I dont believe that God in human history has been quietist or quite so stoic, Jesus, who I believe was God incarnate, and the prophets before, and the saints since, were all pretty prescriptive about how to avoid suffering and that God did not like suffering.

It can serve a purpose but believing that this makes suffering good is masochistic, something which is human, all too human, rather than divine.

Bahaha! Good point, I certainly am occasionally guilty of masochism. I do still hold to Paul's point, but should have disclaimed that I don't believe that God "wants us to suffer". As you have pointed out, living within the will of God (in obedience to the way he asks us to live) helps us to avoid lots of sin-based suffering, for sure. That said, there is definitely non-sin-based suffering, that would fall into the character building category that I originally mentioned.

 

[Mole]

This is a good post, on the other hand I dont believe that God in human history has been quietist or quite so stoic, Jesus, who I believe was God incarnate, and the prophets before, and the saints since, were all pretty prescriptive about how to avoid suffering and that God did not like suffering.

It can serve a purpose but believing that this makes suffering good is masochistic, something which is human, all too human, rather than divine.

Jesus was Judaic. And in the first century, not unlike today, Judaism was based on the family.

Yet Jesus never established a Judaic family. He never married or raised children. He lived at home with his parents until he was in his early thirties. This is so unlikely in Judaism in the first century, we can reasonably say that Jesus did not exist in history, rather Jesus is a figure of theology.

We are told Jesus never married, or raised a Judaic family, and lived at home with his parents, for theological reasons, not reasons of history.

So what is the purpose of theology hiding behind history?

 

[Lark]

Jesus was Judaic. And in the first century, not unlike today, Judaism was based on the family.

Yet Jesus never established a Judaic family. He never married or raised children. He lived at home with his parents until he was in his early thirties. This is so unlikely in Judaism in the first century, we can reasonably say that Jesus did not exist in history, rather Jesus is a figure of theology.

We are told Jesus never married, or raised a Judaic family, and lived at home with his parents, for theological reasons, not reasons of history.

So what is the purpose of theology hiding behind history?

Mole you're repeating a script you learned from some place, again, what makes you think contemporary judahism isnt based on the family? I thought the tributes at the recent service for the death of one of the founders of Israel (cant get much more Jewish than that) by his children were pretty life and family affirming.

Anyway, if you're interested in discussions of God as revealed in human history then I'd recommend reading some of the liberation theologians or Erich Fromm's books which deal with religious topics, I think You Shall Be Gods is his reworking of the old testament with his own historicism ideas.

 

[Cloudpatrol]

God lets bad things happen, when his fridge runs out of beer

I have this sneaking suspicion that you are THE God in this scenario, yes?

 

[Cellmold]

God is so far removed from our level of perception in causality as to be a slave.

I think God (any god) is built in forms of reaction and energy and the only conclusion of omnipotence is slavery; slavery to the power to do anything and with this, remove the meaning in anything.

God cannot 'let' anything happen as God does not know an absence of knowing. Time is not linear for God. Ineffability need not apply, as God created all and so all knows God.

God doesn't possess the luxury of boredom and probably doesn't need our worship.

God is a self-made prisoner.

 

[Jaguar]

Before trump existed, God existed.

Before Trump existed, Frederick Drumpf existed.

 

[RedAmazoneFriendZone]

For us to learn the different forces that rule the world

 

[gromit]

I don't buy it. There are utterly horrific things that happen in this world and I don't think it's because God wills it or allows it. I'm not talking about "ohh you got dumped by your ex, that builds character". I'm talking about things that crush the human spirit, that ruin lives, result in cycles of harm across generations. Rape of a seven-year-old. War atrocities. That kind of thing.

Any god capable of intervening in "lesser" instances when people pray for a miracle, but who permits these deeper horrific circumstances is not worthy of my devotion.

I believe in a god that is GOOD, thus I cannot believe in one that has the power to change the course of events but chooses to allow for crushing despair. The one I believe in redeems and heals and inspires us to something higher.

 

[cascadeco]

I don't buy it. There are utterly horrific things that happen in this world and I don't think it's because God wills it or allows it. I'm not talking about "ohh you got dumped by your ex, that builds character". I'm talking about things that crush the human spirit, that ruin lives, result in cycles of harm across generations. Rape of a seven-year-old. War atrocities. That kind of thing.

Any god capable of intervening in "lesser" instances when people pray for a miracle, but who permits these deeper horrific circumstances is not worthy of my devotion.

I believe in a god that is GOOD, thus I cannot believe in one that has the power to change the course of events but chooses to allow for crushing despair. The one I believe in redeems and heals and inspires us to something higher.

I agree. Though I'm not a believer, it's one of the main issues I used to have; but really, the 'it makes you stronger' /'there is a reason for these things' is one of the only explanations one CAN make for it, if one assumes that God actively steps into everyones' lives and monitors, or doles out crushing illnesses to some people but 'allows' others to be illness free.

But right, the fact that some people live in horrible pain 24/7 due to medical conditions, or who are gang raped if they live in a country where that is a norm, or some people getting abducted and chained in a psycopath's basement for a decade, no, God has nothing to do with any of that. Nor is any of that 'character building' / testing ones strength or for some greater purpose. Sure, one might have to rationalize such if one goes through that, or to simply be able to function and live wholly looking forward, for ones own mental sanity, but it's nothing to do with God.

 

[ZNP-TBA]

Perhaps it's a true test of faith to still believe in and love God despite all the bad shit happening to good people in the world. If everything was just peachy (garden of Eden-esque-like proportions) then belief would be easy, no?

If you're married and your husband/wife constantly showers you with gifts and there is virtually no struggle then it's hard to determine if the love is unconditional because there are no 'bad times' to test it.

I'm a non-believer but my understanding about God belief, at least from the Western Christian perspective, is that God isn't some shield against all the evils and pain in the world. Loving God doesn't automatically make those things go away. Part of having 'free will' is dealing with both the good and bad and not always being nestled in some divine shelter. God doesn't 'owe' you or humanity anything and that includes peace and harmony but the fact that he wants to give it, eventually, to good people is something we should be thankful for and appreciative of since God can erase our entire existence if he chooses to do so.

These are some of the arguments coming to my head on the side of those that believe in God. I'm sure actual believers can come up with something better.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

Jonathan Haidt studied every philosophical and religious and moral tradition to find and distill ancient wisdom and see how it held up to modern understanding. Every one has a version of Nietzsche's "What does not kill me makes me stronger." So sages and wise folks throughout history of every background have determined that suffering is a key to growth and avoiding pain is a path to avoiding growth.

So, while God has no desire to hurt us, He understands that removing struggle stunts us. Therefore, it would hurt us more to remove all struggle and pain in the world, as it would prevent growth.

On of the greatest gifts of God is free will. Free will means that we can choose what we will do and that the others are free as well. They can cause pain to others, if they so desire, and if God were to stop everyone causing pain to others, he would need to reject free will.

So God loves us so much, he cares for us so much, that he doesn't just help us avoid failurev and pain, even though he could.

As a parent, one of the hardest things is letting fail and suffer consequences. It is hard not to try to protect one's children from any pain. Yet overly coddled children grow up incapable of handling life as well as those who were allowed to fail and suffer.

What God can do, without violating our free will, is help us and strengthen us, as we exercise faith and turn unto him. He can help us cope and grow. He can help us gain perspective and understanding. He can help us build resilience. He can help guide us on our path as we build our relationship with him.

I am confident that God cries when each of his children suffers. His restraint is a huge demonstration of his love.

Imagine for a minute that you had power to remove all suffering and pain in the world, yet you also had the knowledge that removing it would prevent growth and development, leaving everyone like spiritual infants, far below their potential, perventing your other goals.

Now, nothing prevents us from exercising our free will and helping others. We can look where we live and decide if we can serve our neighbors and make where we live better. We can decide every day to treat others as we would like to be treated. We can choose to share happiness and love and build up others. We can help bear the burdens of others by reaching out and providing the listening ear and the human compassion.

 

[Poki]

Because he wanted people to have a personal choice.

People are inherently ignorant not bad or evil.

 

[1487610420]

 

[Norrsken]

Everything in the universe is like a parallel mirror--without evil, there cannot be goodness, without darkness, no light can shine through, etc--and it is with the bad that the good can exist. Bad things must happen so that the good can happen, and we can appreciate what we have in our lives. I don't think it's fair to blame God or whatever omnipotent deity is out there because everything must be balanced in the end.

 

[Passacaglia]

God let's bad things happen to us in order for us to be mentally and spiritually stronger and sometimes, he sees weaknesses that we do not even know. Sometimes because of our own wrong doing.
It is also to test us whether we are loyal or not. Sometimes we take things for granted and it makes us evaluate our own choices in the past with an open eye.

Are we mentally and spiritually stronger for being trapped in a digital fantasy? What could we have done to deserve subservience to the machines? How can our loyalty be tested when reality itself is taken for granted?

 

[Mole]

Jonathan Haidt studied every philosophical and religious and moral tradition to find and distill ancient wisdom and see how it held up to modern understanding. Every one has a version of Nietzsche's "What does not kill me makes me stronger." So sages and wise folks throughout history of every background have determined that suffering is a key to growth and avoiding pain is a path to avoiding growth.

As we learn we experience cognitive dissonance, and cognitive dissonance is emotionally painful.

 

[miss fortune]

Didn't you get the e-mail? He sent one out to everyone on the forum.

Obviously it's a mod conspiracy preventing all members from hearing directly from God... if you didn't get the email you're on the ban list