• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

On legality of Infanticide

Jack Flak

Permabanned
Joined
Jul 17, 2008
Messages
9,098
MBTI Type
type
That's all fine, but you're missing the fact that he likely holds more conservative values on the subject than most of the people passionately attacking him.
If he doesn't "stand behind his words," as I naturally assume he doesn't, then this is a silly, repugnant thread, just like it is. And like I've stated. And others have.

And I read plenty of it. *is quick*
 

SolitaryWalker

Tenured roisterer
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
3,504
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
Of which, I believe you are flawed in clearly. If you think it's the right way of doing so, go on and try to pass such a law. If babies make me FEEL like they are humans, than that is what I shall in turn think when I debate. Just because you think babies shouldn't have human rights, it doesn't mean they won't. Like I said.. the laws are in place to protect those until they can protect themselves.. your theory would destroy those protections.

I dont get it. Just because you feel like they are human they are human? Do you maintain that Feelings are facts?

What if I feel like there is a gremlin in my room who is trying to tie me down to my bed every time I attempt to get up and I cant go to work because of this? Is my employer obligated to buy this by the same token as one ought to buy your claim?

I've taken your logical argument and just gone one step further.

Explain how you did that.

Sorry, I missed that thread... but the question remains...


I have answered your question in post 38.
 

Lateralus

New member
Joined
May 18, 2007
Messages
6,262
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
3w4
What on earth is the relevance of this?
You are making an arbitrary judgment. What makes your arbitrary judgment better than anyone else's arbitrary judgment? I think the burden rests on your shoulders, here. Our society has already determined that the mother gets to choose whether or not her child has any rights, until birth, when that choice is no longer hers to make.

I'd like to see some scientific evidence that shows your stance is beneficial to society, not some weak philosophical argument.
 

Usehername

On a mission
Joined
May 30, 2007
Messages
3,794
BW, your intent here is to enlighten pro-choice folks about the insignificant difference between a birthed and a yet-unbirthed baby, no?

And thus everyone getting all upset at you should instead turn their emotions upon themselves and examine their personal abortion stance?

If he doesn't "stand behind his words," as I naturally assume he doesn't, then this is a silly, repugnant thread, just like it is. And like I've stated. And others have.

And I read plenty of it. *is quick*

I think you're just being moody about it. If it makes people think, it makes people think.

Which is arguably the point of the forum.
 

kyuuei

Emperor/Dictator
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
13,964
MBTI Type
enfp
Enneagram
8
If he doesn't "stand behind his words," as I naturally assume he doesn't, then this is a silly, repugnant thread, just like it is. And like I've stated. And others have.

And I read plenty of it *is quick*.

Right.

Anyways, it doesn't mean I can't enjoy getting fired up about it and arguing my point as passionately as I would anything else. Whether he feels that way or not, it's his argument and I will argue as if it is his to claim. It doesn't mean I'm mad at him? I'm attacking the thread's statement, not Blue himself?
 

SolitaryWalker

Tenured roisterer
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
3,504
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
You are making an arbitrary judgment. What makes your arbitrary judgment better than anyone else's arbitrary judgment? I think the burden rests on your shoulders, here. Our society has already determined that the mother gets to choose whether or not her child has any rights, until birth, when that choice is no longer hers to make..

What is the logical foundation of this argument?

Scientific, or empirical foundation to my argument has already been discovered. We merely need to examine how the brain of a 2 year old works and what cognitive functions it capacitates him to perform. And respectively the brain of an infant, a fetus, and a retarded child.

You're all set there.

The judgment was not arbitrary, you need to re-read the OP more carefully.

If he doesn't "stand behind his words," as I naturally assume he doesn't, then this is a silly, repugnant thread, just like it is. And like I've stated. And others have.

And I read plenty of it. *is quick*


I do indeed. On numerous occassions, I provided a very rigorous defense of my thesis, it seems to have gone over your head.
 

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
Joined
Jun 6, 2008
Messages
19,764
I thought I already covered this. It is not okay to kill the healthy adult person because he has the psychological sense of self, this is what grants one the human rights.

Why create so narrow definitions?
Why do you say that is not ok to kill people that have psychological sense?

Is it maybe because you don't like idea?
What from the point of logic stops you from killing other people. You have said that you don't believe in mainstram version of god. If you are good planner nobody will ever know what to did.

Why not killing te infant, siblings , mother , father even grandparents if they are close.

The palanet is aleady overcrowded, and god does not exists?

Sorry logic is logic.
 

Jack Flak

Permabanned
Joined
Jul 17, 2008
Messages
9,098
MBTI Type
type
I think you're just being moody about it. If it makes people think, it makes people think.

Which is arguably the point of the forum.
Then I apologize for my interference. I was under the impression most people got done with this low-thinking in childhood. Actually, I wasn't; I just deluded myself for a few minutes about the presence and general quality of the Average Mind again.
 

Usehername

On a mission
Joined
May 30, 2007
Messages
3,794
You people are all confusing me.

Explain to me why it's so terrible of him make people think that abortion is no different than killing living babies? Because by doing so, he's arguing that abortion is wrong! I'm totally confused how this is riling everyone up.

I don't believe in aborting babies. Yes, I agree with BlueWing's overarching point.


:huh:
 

SolitaryWalker

Tenured roisterer
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
3,504
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
Why create so narrow definitions?
Why do you say that is not ok to kill people that have psychological sense?.

The definition is such because we need to see what the essence of a human being is, and what demarcates a human being from an animal. It is clearly the ability to function cognitively on a certain level.

This definition is perhaps narrow in some contexts, though as broad as it needs to be in order to depict the essence of man.

Is it maybe because you don't like idea?
What from the point of logic stops you from killing other people. You have said that you don't believe in mainstram version of god. If you are good planner nobody will ever know what to did. .

I do not see the relevance.

Why not killing te infant, siblings , mother , father even grandparents if they are close. .

Why do I have to repeat the same thing over and over again?
Your relationship to those people is not relevant. It only matters whether or not they are able to function cognitively at a high enough level to be able to claim human rights.
 

Usehername

On a mission
Joined
May 30, 2007
Messages
3,794
Then I apologize for my interference. I was under the impression most people got done with this low-thinking in childhood. Actually, I wasn't; I just deluded myself for a few minutes about the presence and general quality of the Average Mind again.

I still don't get it. See above post of mine.
 

Lateralus

New member
Joined
May 18, 2007
Messages
6,262
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
3w4
What is the logical foundation of this argument?

Scientific, or empirical foundation to my argument has already been discovered. We merely need to examine how the brain of a 2 year old works and what cognitive functions it capacitates him to perform. And respectively the brain of an infant, a fetus, and a retarded child.

You're all set there.

The judgment was not arbitrary, you need to re-read the OP more carefully.
Perform at what level?
 

SolitaryWalker

Tenured roisterer
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
3,504
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
You people are all confusing me.

Explain to me why it's so terrible of him make people think that abortion is no different than killing living babies? Because by doing so, he's arguing that abortion is wrong! I'm totally confused how this is riling everyone up.

I don't believe in aborting babies. Yes, I agree with BlueWing's overarching point.


:huh:

My point seems to be the opposite of this. A baby or a fetus should not be regarded as a human being because they lack the aforementioned psychological sense of self.
 

SillyGoose

New member
Joined
Jun 11, 2008
Messages
243
MBTI Type
EXXP
You people are all confusing me.

Explain to me why it's so terrible of him make people think that abortion is no different than killing living babies? Because by doing so, he's arguing that abortion is wrong! I'm totally confused how this is riling everyone up.

I don't believe in aborting babies. Yes, I agree with BlueWing's overarching point.


:huh:

Because it's talking about killing babies!!!! :huh:

It's just a gut reaction to a yucky subject.

And I suspect that this is just a social experiment of BlueWings to further advance his theory of crazy NF's and their crazy feelings that shouldn't have any place in society.
 

kyuuei

Emperor/Dictator
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
13,964
MBTI Type
enfp
Enneagram
8
I dont get it. Just because you feel like they are human they are human? Do you maintain that Feelings are facts?

What if I feel like there is a gremlin in my room who is trying to tie me down to my bed every time I attempt to get up and I cant go to work because of this? Is my employer obligated to buy this by the same token as one ought to buy your claim?

The FACT is: Most of society agrees that after abortion is illegal on the child, there are laws to protect it until it is capable of making decisions for itself. I feel that way, and I argue with the point that way, but that is society's decisions as a whole. If society felt differently, they would change it. Whether that decision was made by feelings, or values, or otherwise, the law remains and satisfies the majority.

If you said that, I would laugh and tell you get back to work!

Whats to stop society from, in turn, raising the strict age later on after that were implemented? Let's start terminating old people with dementia, alzheimers, retarded folk, and everyone else in the world between the ages of 0 - 120 for that matter. There's too many flaws in your logic, and not enough facts based on who we can clearly consider capable of being human and functioning as one to have the rights as one.

You are making an arbitrary judgment. What makes your arbitrary judgment better than anyone else's arbitrary judgment? I think the burden rests on your shoulders, here. Our society has already determined that the mother gets to choose whether or not her child has any rights, until birth, when that choice is no longer hers to make.

I'd like to see some scientific evidence that shows your stance is beneficial to society, not some weak philosophical argument.

:heart:

I think you're just being moody about it. If it makes people think, it makes people think.

Which is arguably the point of the forum.

Right. And after reading his point, I am arguing the fact that I believe he is wrong. And having a jolly time doing so.
 

SolitaryWalker

Tenured roisterer
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
3,504
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
Perform at what level?

At a level of basic intellectual cognition. For example, having a describable idea of the external physical environment. Being able to speak in full sentences. In short, basic intellectual functioning that are necessary to distinguish one from an animal and underline one's psychological status as that of a human being which is necessary for proclamation of human rights.

The FACT is: Most of society agrees that after abortion is illegal on the child, there are laws to protect it until it is capable of making decisions for itself. I feel that way, and I argue with the point that way, but that is society's decisions as a whole. If society felt differently, they would change it. Whether that decision was made by feelings, or values, or otherwise, the law remains and satisfies the majority.

If you said that, I would laugh and tell you get back to work!

Whats to stop society from, in turn, raising the strict age later on after that were implemented? Let's start terminating old people with dementia, alzheimers, retarded folk, and everyone else in the world between the ages of 0 - 120 for that matter. There's too many flaws in your logic, and not enough facts based on who we can clearly consider capable of being human and functioning as one to have the rights as one.



:heart:



Right. And after reading his point, I am arguing the fact that I believe he is wrong. And having a jolly time doing so.


Correct me if this is not an accurate interpretation of your view. Whatever people feel is right and agree upon goes, irrespectively of the rationale behind their decisions.
 

Jack Flak

Permabanned
Joined
Jul 17, 2008
Messages
9,098
MBTI Type
type
You people are all confusing me.

Explain to me why it's so terrible of him make people think that abortion is no different than killing living babies? Because by doing so, he's arguing that abortion is wrong! I'm totally confused how this is riling everyone up.

I don't believe in aborting babies. Yes, I agree with BlueWing's overarching point.


:huh:
Believe it or not, that is exactly what I assumed his point was. I'm a bit perceptive: feel free to take my word for it. I stand by my statements: It's a ludicrous topic of discussion, and has no relevance to the issue. Silliness defined.
 

Usehername

On a mission
Joined
May 30, 2007
Messages
3,794
BW, your intent here is to enlighten pro-choice folks about the insignificant difference between a birthed and a yet-unbirthed baby, no?

And thus everyone getting all upset at you should instead turn their emotions upon themselves and examine their personal abortion stance?

Yes. They should not merely state their prejudices, but examine the logical foundations of their views. Almost certainly, after they have done this they will realize that laws concerning prohibition of infanticide and laws concerning prohibition of abortion by the same token (in some nations) are untenable.




This attitude is incompatible with science and philosophy and is responsible for the ignorance in this world which in effect leads to much suffering. We have incurred many problems in this world because of our ignorance with regard to how the world works and how we must deal with it. The only way we can avoid being ignorant is by asking questions.

My point seems to be the opposite of this. A baby or a fetus should not be regarded as a human being because they lack the aforementioned psychological sense of self.

I am completely confused.


What's the difference between you saying "Yes." to me first, and then saying "completely the opposite"?
 

Lateralus

New member
Joined
May 18, 2007
Messages
6,262
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
3w4
At a level of basic intellectual cognition. For example, having a describable idea of the external physical environment. Being able to speak in full sentences. In short, basic intellectual functioning that are necessary to distinguish one from an animal and underline one's psychological status as that of a human being which is necessary for proclamation of human rights.
Why is this level so important? What benefit would this give society? You do realize that the (ideal) purpose of law is that it benefits society, right? That would be the litmus test, if you ask me.
 
Top