On the Human condition

[SolitaryWalker]

Axiom: People are naturally driven towards self-affirmation. The reason for this is because we all naturally wish to feel good. Thus, as a matter of unconscious drive we do all things which we feel leads to our well being.

It is important for us to believe that we are in good condition in order to feel good. For this reason we feel that we must know something positive about ourselves.

There are two ways to know things. Through our own thinking, and by virtue of being informed by others.

Most people are not able to think on their own clearly, therefore they need to be affirmed by others.

Most people elect recognition by others as their primary goal in life.

Society tends to send conflicting messages to people and for this reason they lack a clear notion with respect to what they must do in order to receive the affirmation. This is the case because most people informing them are not clear on the message themselves. Hence, at the very beginning we start with a communicator who is not clearly aware of what instructions to give. He does not communicate it clearly and others, due to their inability to think clearly are unable to properly understand the message he has stated.

As a result of such confusions, his message is increasingly misunderstood as it begins to spread further.

People behave irrationally for these two reasons. The original message was likely irrational and the confusion that has followed as a result of unsound communication has likely rendered the message even more irrational.

Since most people are unable to think for themselves they are guided almost entirely by their interpretations of the irrational reactions they receive. For this reason they are unable to solve problems in an efficient manner and that is the primary source of the most significant problems plaguing mankind. This proposition is nearly a truism as the manifestly most sound reaction to any problem is to attempt to solve it. Since people are unable to solve such problems, they are gravely afflicted by them.

 

[Jack Flak]

True. This sounds like another ailment which can be alleviated through one year hard labor.

 

[phoenix13]

Interesting. The outward affirmation sounds like extroverted perception (using your environment to judge yourself). Were that so, you'd be saying extroversion is the root of mankind's most significant problems. Is that what you meant?

"People behave irrationally for these two reasons. The original message was likely irrational and the confusion that has followed as a result of unsound communication has likely rendered the message even more irrational."
A glarring omission are the animalistic leftovers that lead us to behave "irrationally" but have nothing to do with our conscious deliberation. Also, many people don't bother with reflectiveness or deliberation. You may be assuming that mankind generally strives for understanding as their means to well-being. While that's partially true, I think most are tilted closer to food and sex as that's our primal default.

 

[colmena]

*I start reading. Someone turns the radio on. I shut the door. I continue reading. The dog wants to go out just because the door's been closed. I open then close the door behind him. I start reading from the beginning as I've forgotten what I've read. The dog scratches on the door to come back in. I open the door. I close the tab.*

 

[WobblyStilettos]

Most people are not able to think on their own clearly

Do you consider yourself part of this group, or do you think for yourself?

 

[Anja]

*I start reading. Someone turns the radio on. I shut the door. I continue reading. The dog wants to go out just because the door's been closed. I open then close the door behind him. I start reading from the beginning as I've forgotten what I've read. The dog scratches on the door to come back in. I open the door. I close the tab.*

*Watches Colmena.*

*Comes to the conclusion that Colmena is a true Humantarian. Um.*

 

[redacted]

There are two ways to know things. Through our own thinking, and by virtue of being informed by others.

Most people are not able to think on their own clearly, therefore they need to be affirmed by others.

You are right. But those two things are not at all mutually exclusive. What if, through our own thinking, we calculate that it would be beneficial to have positive relationships with people around us? Wouldn't positive affirmation, then, be a sign that we're pursuing that goal properly?

Of course positive affirmation should not be enough. But our own thinking is not enough either. Humans are social creatures, and there is value to fitting into a social structure. Now, most social structures are a big bunch of bullshit, so maybe through our own thinking we can find/create one that makes us feel good. But we all need this affirmation from others.

It's also important to note that clear thinking should take precedence over external affirmation.

So I think we're in agreement, I just wanted to add that part in.

 

[ThatsWhatHeSaid]

It is important for us to believe that we are in good condition in order to feel good. For this reason we feel that we must know something positive about ourselves.

There are two ways to know things. Through our own thinking, and by virtue of being informed by others.

Most people are not able to think on their own clearly, therefore they need to be affirmed by others.

I think you're right, except you've mistakenly identified rational thinking (later on) with positive thinking. Thinking positive things about yourself is often a matter of comparisons, not rationality. When you think of yourself in relation to your superiors, you may feel lacking, and in relations to your inferiors, competent and accomplished. Rationality can help you see this process, but the actual process itself doesn't have to do with clear thinking or rationality.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Interesting. The outward affirmation sounds like extroverted perception (using your environment to judge yourself). Were that so, you'd be saying extroversion is the root of mankind's most significant problems. Is that what you meant?

"People behave irrationally for these two reasons. The original message was likely irrational and the confusion that has followed as a result of unsound communication has likely rendered the message even more irrational."
A glarring omission are the animalistic leftovers that lead us to behave "irrationally" but have nothing to do with our conscious deliberation. Also, many people don't bother with reflectiveness or deliberation. You may be assuming that mankind generally strives for understanding as their means to well-being. While that's partially true, I think most are tilted closer to food and sex as that's our primal default.

1)Rational thinking can prevent us from acting out on most important animalistic urges.

2)Extroversion, Feeling and Sensation are the typological faculties most closely associated with relying on the external agenda for self-assessment. Extroversion by definition defines itself by the external environment. Feeling cannot be at peace with itself without being at harmony with others. And Sensation goes by what can be observed in the world of the senses and concrete occurences.

I think you're right, except you've mistakenly identified rational thinking (later on) with positive thinking. Thinking positive things about yourself is often a matter of comparisons, not rationality. When you think of yourself in relation to your superiors, you may feel lacking, and in relations to your inferiors, competent and accomplished. Rationality can help you see this process, but the actual process itself doesn't have to do with clear thinking or rationality.

There is a very high correlation between rational thinking and positive thinking because a rational thinker's past for the most part leads him to believe he can solve his problems. At least most of the very easy ones, for an irrational person, not even that is guaranteed. Very interestingly, Jung has noted that the thinking of the Extroverted Thinking type and the Introverted Thinking is positive, yet the Thinking of an Extroverted Feeler and and Introverted Feeler negative. Generally the functions we use a lot we have a positive attitude towards because we seem to be naturally gifted with them. To be a rational thinker means to be a gifted thinker, for this reason the rational thinker will be a positive thinker to the extent that he is a rational thinker.

The bottom line is, there is a psychological principle that when we do something well, we tend to have a positive attitude towards that activity. The primary purpose of Thinking is solving problems or acquiring knowledge on our own rationale rather than from instructions of others. Rational thinking is the hallmark of such a successful activity, therefore it is highly correlated with positive thinking.

You are right. But those two things are not at all mutually exclusive. What if, through our own thinking, we calculate that it would be beneficial to have positive relationships with people around us? Wouldn't positive affirmation, then, be a sign that we're pursuing that goal properly?

Of course positive affirmation should not be enough. But our own thinking is not enough either. Humans are social creatures, and there is value to fitting into a social structure. Now, most social structures are a big bunch of bullshit, so maybe through our own thinking we can find/create one that makes us feel good. But we all need this affirmation from others.

It's also important to note that clear thinking should take precedence over external affirmation.

So I think we're in agreement, I just wanted to add that part in.

Our own thinking is enough to give ourselves affirmation because that alone allows us to see if we have merit or not, irrespectively of what others think.

Our own thinking may also quite correctly lead us to believe that we do not have merit. However, it will also allow us to see what we need to do to become meritorious. Unlike the person who is driven by societal expectations, we really will not need much to think we have enough merit to appreciate ourselves. Hence, the process of acquiring merit shall be fast and easy comparing to the arduous process of earning the approval of others.

 

[Anja]

I was wondering if the OP thought that trying to make one's self feel good about themselves through their relationships with others was a negative thing. i understand better what you are saying from your last post, BlueWing.

I'd go so far as to say that "the arduous process of earning the approval of others" not only is arduous but an empty exercise in fluffing one's own ego and will result in the "imposter syndrome."

It goes like this, "Hah. I've got everybody fooled into thinking I'm a good, smart, whatever person. Why do I still feel so empty and unhappy?"

 

[SolitaryWalker]

I was wondering if the OP thought that trying to make one's self feel good about themselves through their relationships with others was a negative thing. i understand better what you are saying from your last post, BlueWing.

I'd go so far as to say that "the arduous process of earning the approval of others" not only is arduous but an empty exercise in fluffing one's own ego and will result in the "imposter syndrome."

It goes like this, "Hah. I've got everybody fooled into thinking I'm a good, smart, whatever person. Why do I still feel so empty and unhappy?"

You can use your relationships with others as self-reinforcement. Though when you are completetely dependent on that for self-affirmation you have the problem I have described in the OP.

Bottom line is, it is okay to have this as the source of affirmation, only if it is not the primary source however.

 

[Anja]

Yes, I get this and agree.

 

[phoenix13]

1)Rational thinking can prevent us from acting out on most important animalistic urges.

2)Extroversion, Feeling and Sensation are the typological faculties most closely associated with relying on the external agenda for self-assessment. Extroversion by definition defines itself by the external environment. Feeling cannot be at peace with itself without being at harmony with others. And Sensation goes by what can be observed in the world of the senses and concrete occurences.

Re:1) You haven't addressed my concern. Most people do not deliberate to the degree that you're suggesting. Furthermore, these "animalistic urges" significantly contribute to the confusion described in your original post, and your omission of them affects the credibility of your argument.

 

[Sniffles]

Hmmmn.....interesting discussion. Hopefully I'll be able to contribute in the near future.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Re:1) You haven't addressed my concern. Most people do not deliberate to the degree that you're suggesting. Furthermore, these "animalistic urges" significantly contribute to the confusion described in your original post, and your omission of them affects the credibility of your argument.

Re:2) This is not a personal attack, however it's impossible not to comine:
a. the fact that you lack E,F,and S with
b. your dismissal of "animalistic urges" under the premise of rationality (which you do not lack)

to corroborate the fact that your argument is flawed for lack of the very thing that you argue make the human condition so tragic: an inability to be informed by others.

???????????????

All I can say..

 

[redacted]

Re:1) You haven't addressed my concern. Most people do not deliberate to the degree that you're suggesting. Furthermore, these "animalistic urges" significantly contribute to the confusion described in your original post, and your omission of them affects the credibility of your argument.

Re:2) This is not a personal attack, however it's impossible not to comine:
a. the fact that you lack E,F,and S with
b. your dismissal of "animalistic urges" under the premise of rationality (which you do not lack)

to corroborate the fact that your argument is flawed for lack of the very thing that you argue make the human condition so tragic: an inability to be informed by others.

Yeah what are you talking about? That really made no sense.

In debate, either list a premise that you disagree with and why, or point out an incorrect logical step.

 

[phoenix13]

I can’t make this short and simple, but I’ll try to explain:

I found the entire argument based on a world made up of reflective people. Yes, people are able to reflect and deliberate (that’s what makes us human), BUT I don’t think people do it on default. Often when people face dilemmas, they act out of instinct, not thought.

You wrote:

People behave irrationally for these two reasons. The original message was likely irrational and the confusion that has followed as a result of unsound communication has likely rendered the message even more irrational.

To which I say, yes AND there are those little things called lust, anger, jealousy, etc. (again, the “animalistic urges”) that are responsible for far more irrational behavior than poor communication or confused self-image. I don’t find that to be a trivial point.
Your assertion that “Rational thinking can prevent us from acting out on most important animalistic urges,” made me seriously question what human race you were refering to. Do you know why innercity murder rates are so high? I'll make that rhetorical so I don't have to type it out. I will, however, if you ask me to.

Now for the second part.:
After typing out an explanation, I realized that it involved way too many loose associations to be credible. So, I'll delete it. If you actually care to read the mush I wrote, let me know and I'll post it.

 

[redacted]

I can’t make this short and simple, but I’ll try to explain:

I found the entire argument based on a world made up of reflective people. Yes, people are able to reflect and deliberate (that’s what makes us human), BUT I don’t think people do it on default. Often when people face dilemmas, they act out of instinct, not thought.

Right. His argument is that thinking things through for yourself is the best thing to do.

 

[phoenix13]

Right. His argument is that thinking things through for yourself is the best thing to do.

Yes. From what I understood, his argument was that being solely informed by others is detrimental (causing misunderstanding, confusion, and irrational behavior). The remedy is thinking for yourself (like you said). This I agree with.

My issue is that I don't find this to be "the human condition," or in any way the standard case. IOW, most people don't go about pondering who they are, whether they're in "good condition," etc. It's not the major cause of irrational behavior.

 

[Anja]

Don't you all think that it's a balance between the two?