Explain islam and how it intermixes with the bible

[Poki]

I am reading up on islam from various sources from the web and i am confused. Some say allah is the same god as christianity. Others try to prove he is not through things like name and sounds more like they are trying to reason. All say mohammed is a prophet of Allah and that jesus is also a prophet. Which means it is the same God. Some say that the bible is one of several books that are from Allah, but the scripture is corrupt. Due to this the quran from mohammed is directed as the only truth. Which just sounds lazy, as in i dont want to try and differentiate the truth in the other book, so i am just gonna throw them away. I have also read people say that muslim is not chritianity because they dont believe jesus is god, but just a mere prophet. I thought christianity was to believe in God, not to believe in jesus. Which further confuses because if muslims believe they are one in the same then chritians believe in allah.

Anyway, can someone explain better so all of this is propery tied together. There is so much confliciting ideas i really have no idea what is what at this point between the 2.

I want a real discussion, not a flame war between the two. This is about learning, not a pissing match of which is right or wrong. Its a mere compare and contrast of the actual words in each.

 

[ZNP-TBA]

As you already know Islam accepts Jesus as a prophet of Allah. Traditionally Jesus is quite revered in Islam, second only to Mohammed.

Muslims believe that the scriptures in the old and new testaments became corrupted though they traditionally regarded Christians and Jews 'higher' than pagans or other religions since Jews and Christians are still considered people of the book. As Anax said all three religions trace their roots to Abraham.

Islam was started with Mohammed though. Mohammed was an interesting historical character. We only have fragments of his actual life, most of it is hearsay and based on verbal tradition. What most scholars agree with on Mohammed about is that he had a turbulent childhood. Initially he came from a prominent family (prominent for a desert people, not soaked in riches) but his father died before he was even born. Mohammed lived with between foster parents (some abusive), grandparents, and was even orphaned completely. His mother died when he was very young too. He eventually was raised by the desert Bedouins learning how to thrive in that life. Somewhere along his life he became a merchant and would travel all throughout the Mediterranean. Legend says Mohammed considered himself a moral guy and he was first exposed to Abrahamic religion by a Christian monk who told him he's the prophet of God. Mohammed was interested in faith though. It's through his merchant position that he became heavily exposed to Christianity and Judaism. Mohammed probably appreciated how both religions were a unifying factor between different groups of people. Jews for centuries have maintained their homogeneity because of their faith and felt a strong sense of kinship (even if there was political/spiritual difference between various prominent Jews). In Mohammed's day he saw how Christianity was a unifying force between various peoples on the Mediterranean. When he looked at his own lot, the desert Beduoin pegans, he saw little unity and common identity though he recognized they were one Arab-Berber 'super ethnicity.' Basically, Mohammed used a strict interpretation of a popular monotheistic religion to unite his people into a single identity with a purpose. Mohammed saw his people as people of the book (Bible/Torah) too since all of Abraham's descendants existed in his region.

Mohammed's tactics are a different subject but that's my two cents.

 

[Poki]

[MENTION=25403]ZNP-TBA[/MENTION] that is a very interesting way its explained. It creates an image of this is what i believe is best for my people, so this is what my people will believe is best for them. It follows what i have been told about the new testament..read it as a story. There is lessons to be learned in the story as a whole. It follows who we are as people in actuality. It follows our psychological makeup of the balance we struggle for. That of the father, our needs, our desires, our wants.

Makes me ask the question...what if our future is not predetermined other then the fact that we are the way we are which is exactly what decides where we will go. The butterfly affect of the past leads to the future which becomes the past. The best we can do is to reach that balance and become a consistant whole that can properly manage ourself. Until we can manage ourself we will not be able to manage the world.

Anyway...if you wanna know how i work, that analysis is how my brain works and paths it goes down. How i create my understandings.

 

[ZNP-TBA]

[MENTION=12103]Poki[/MENTION], the Arab people needed unifying factor to basically put aside their differences and become a respected civilization. Mohammed wasn't particularly literate nor was he much of a philosopher but he was curious enough about the world around him to discover more information. He understood that he and his people hailed from a land that saw older civilizations like Egypt, Babylon, Carthage, and Israel do great things and their legacies were respected in the world. He must have been a fairly persuasive individual, loved and feared, in order to achieve the creation of another great civilization in the Middle East.

If Mohammed was truly illiterate then he probably didn't write the Quran like legends say. However, he was smart enough to surround himself with scholars and unite them in a singular monotheistic vision. The Arab people needed a purpose and goal and he gave them one. They needed codified common values like the Jews and Christians already had. They needed the base tenants to build a workable diverse society. They needed a common language which they already had but the Quran elevated Arabic into a prophetic and poetic language. There's a lot of words in Arabic that are uniquely descriptive that added another dimension to communication that was lacking in Latin or Greek.

 

[geedoenfj]

I suggest you get to the Islamic center in your area, I think they can provide you with sufficient information about it..

 

[Poki]

I suggest you get to the Islamic center in your area, I think they can provide you with sufficient information about it..

My issue with that is that its like going to a church to find answers about christianity. I prefer a very wide and large amount of data for all aspects. Not just muslim. I will process through all the data and figure things out.

 

[Madisonclark]

Muslims would say that the God of the Quran and the God of the Bible are the same, and that Muslims just have a revelation into the character of God that Christians do not have because the Bible is essentially flawed. Christians would say that the 2 Gods are not the same because the foundation of each is so drastically different. You serve, worship and please them in completely different ways.
The message of the Quran is believe that Allah exists, and obey him. If you're good enough, Allah will grant you access into Paradise.
The message of the Bible is that sin deserves death (physical and spiritual) and that Jesus came to pay for the penalty of sin and grant whoever believes in Him eternal life in heaven.
So Muslims would do good works because they are working for their eternal life. They want to make sure they do enough for Allah so that he will have favor on them.
Christians do good works because they've already been promised eternal life, thus the good works come from gratitude instead of fear. (I.e., I'm going to show mercy to others because Jesus has shown mercy to me.)

Key difference is Jesus. To Muslims, he is just a prophet and good teacher. To Christians, he is the son of God who gave his life for his people.
Islam doesn't believe in original sin, therefore there is no need for a savior since it is possible to live a holy life on your own. Christianity believes in original sin, therefore Jesus is very important since a holy life is only possible through the redemption he provides.

 

[Also]

A lot of people believe that Allah and Yahweh are the same God. Much of the differences in these two books lies in language and the meaning behind the words. You can start by researching why one is called Allah, cont. al-ab, and Yahweh, some would even throw YHWH in the mix.

The major difference between Islam and Christianity is in the role that Jesus and Muhammad play. Both faiths believe Allah and Yahweh to be omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent but they do not agree that Jesus is the Son of God. In Islam, Muhammad, who is called the last prophet, is credited for uniting Arabs under one god. In Christianity, Jesus, who is called The Lamb - Son of God, is credited for His sacrifice that ransomed all the Jews and gentiles, the Resurrection trhough the eventual arrival of the Holy Spirit (which Islam does not embrace as a distinct Person).

Islam - no trinity.
Christianity - Holy Trinity (God the Father, God the Son, God the Spirit).

Because Christ died for all, there is a new law called grace that His believers live by. No work is enough to merit salvation in Christianity, theoretically. There will always be differences in how people practice.

Because Islam and Judaism do not believe in a triune god, no sacrifice can be enough to merit salvation through grace. Which means that Jesus, although respected in Islam, cannot ever play the same role He plays in Christianity in which He is considered the true cornerstone of the Church and the Savior of man.

 

[ZNP-TBA]

My issue with that is that its like going to a church to find answers about christianity. I prefer a very wide and large amount of data for all aspects. Not just muslim. I will process through all the data and figure things out.

Also you live in a day and age where information is literally at your fingertips. However, meeting faithful Muslims may not be a bad idea. I can get the text book information about Islam but it's a different experience interacting with their faithful and being able to ask them questions about their perspective.

 

[ZNP-TBA]

Muslims would say that the God of the Quran and the God of the Bible are the same, and that Muslims just have a revelation into the character of God that Christians do not have because the Bible is essentially flawed. Christians would say that the 2 Gods are not the same because the foundation of each is so drastically different. You serve, worship and please them in completely different ways.
The message of the Quran is believe that Allah exists, and obey him. If you're good enough, Allah will grant you access into Paradise.
The message of the Bible is that sin deserves death (physical and spiritual) and that Jesus came to pay for the penalty of sin and grant whoever believes in Him eternal life in heaven.
So Muslims would do good works because they are working for their eternal life. They want to make sure they do enough for Allah so that he will have favor on them.
Christians do good works because they've already been promised eternal life, thus the good works come from gratitude instead of fear. (I.e., I'm going to show mercy to others because Jesus has shown mercy to me.)

Key difference is Jesus. To Muslims, he is just a prophet and good teacher. To Christians, he is the son of God who gave his life for his people.
Islam doesn't believe in original sin, therefore there is no need for a savior since it is possible to live a holy life on your own. Christianity believes in original sin, therefore Jesus is very important since a holy life is only possible through the redemption he provides.

Very good analysis

 

[ZNP-TBA]

A lot of people believe that Allah and Yahweh are the same God. Much of the differences in these two books lies in language and the meaning behind the words. You can start by researching why one is called Allah, cont. al-ab, and Yahweh, some would even throw YHWH in the mix.

The major difference between Islam and Christianity is in the role that Jesus and Muhammad play. Both faiths believe Allah and Yahweh to be omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent but they do not agree that Jesus is the Son of God. In Islam, Muhammad, who is called the last prophet, is credited for uniting Arabs under one god. In Christianity, Jesus, who is called The Lamb - Son of God, is credited for His sacrifice that ransomed all the Jews and gentiles, the Resurrection trhough the eventual arrival of the Holy Spirit (which Islam does not embrace as a distinct Person).

Islam - no trinity.
Christianity - Holy Trinity (God the Father, God the Son, God the Spirit).

Because Christ died for all, there is a new law called grace that His believers live by. No work is enough to merit salvation in Christianity, theoretically. There will always be differences in how people practice.

Because Islam and Judaism do not believe in a triune god, no sacrifice can be enough to merit salvation through grace. Which means that Jesus, although respected in Islam, cannot ever play the same role He plays in Christianity in which He is considered the true cornerstone of the Church and the Savior of man.

Another great analysis. There are some Christians that don't believe in the Trinity either and see Jesus and God (Yahweh) as two distinct entities with Yahweh being the only actual God.

 

[Crabs]

It's also worth noting that Muslims believe Abraham took Ishmael up on Mount Moriah to sacrifice to God; whereas, Jews/Christians believe it was Isaac. Though Genesis was written over 3,000 years ago, it prophesied that Ishmael's descendants would make war with all men.

16:12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

And here it is, in the year 2016 A.D., Islamic extremism is literally at war with everyone.

 

[ZNP-TBA]

It's also worth noting that Muslims believe Abraham took Ishmael up on Mount Moriah to sacrifice to God; whereas, Jews/Christians believe it was Isaac. Though Genesis was written over 3,000 years ago, it prophesied that Ishmael's descendants would make war with all men.

16:12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

And here it is, in the year 2016 A.D., Islamic extremism is literally at war with everyone.

This is one of the religious justifications for radical Islam's aggressive stance against the non-Muslim world, agreed. That was always a flame burning ready to consume and devour everything around it but Western foreign policy in the last 100 years definitely poured gas on that shit whether it was intentional or just stupid calculating and blow back. Of course, that's not to blame the West for the core violence inherent in radical Islamic theology but it gave them a clear and recognizable enemy to direct that hate towards. And this is one of the problems today. Their radicals recognize their enemy (the West and Western culture/values) while many of the supposed leaders in the West wont even name the enemy and try to pretend that this clash/war of civilizations doesn't exist.

 

[geedoenfj]

My issue with that is that its like going to a church to find answers about christianity. I prefer a very wide and large amount of data for all aspects. Not just muslim. I will process through all the data and figure things out.

Well I think it could be one of the sources, seeing it from all aspects can make you get to see the big picture

 

[Poki]

Well I think it could be one of the sources, seeing it from all aspects can make you get to see the big picture

Yes, it is a good source. Just a single source, though important

 

[Poki]

This is one of the religious justifications for radical Islam's aggressive stance against the non-Muslim world, agreed. That was always a flame burning ready to consume and devour everything around it but Western foreign policy in the last 100 years definitely poured gas on that shit whether it was intentional or just stupid calculating and blow back. Of course, that's not to blame the West for the core violence inherent in radical Islamic theology but it gave them a clear and recognizable enemy to direct that hate towards. And this is one of the problems today. Their radicals recognize their enemy (the West and Western culture/values) while many of the supposed leaders in the West wont even name the enemy and try to pretend that this clash/war of civilizations doesn't exist.

What shall we name the enemy? People are honestly so bad when it comes to qualifiers that radical islam becomes islam and radical muslim becomes muslim. They dont understand the proper break down of qualifiers. They hold this underlying concept of "if some, then all". While they know this is not true, it is so well engrained in perception they cannot use the knowledge that its not true with the perception that radical is treated like a descriptive word and is no longer a qualifier. Hope that makes sense. Alot of people have a hard time merging perception with knowledge to create a whole.

Not to mention a society that is quick to group and classify based off of correlation and not data.

 

[ZNP-TBA]

What shall we name the enemy?

Radical Islam and recognizing it exists.

People are honestly so bad when it comes to qualifiers that radical islam becomes islam and radical muslim becomes muslim.

It's simple. A regular moderate Muslim is just like any other religious person. They peacefully practice their religion as a private and community matter. They don't align themselves with elements in their religion that preaches radicalism and violence towards non-believers (this includes other Muslims that the radicals deem enemies).

They dont understand the proper break down of qualifiers.

Pledging allegiance to a violent group or committing violent crime in the name of your professed religion.

They hold this underlying concept of "if some, then all". While they know this is not true, it is so well engrained in perception they cannot use the knowledge that its not true with the perception that radical is treated like a descriptive word and is no longer a qualifier. Hope that makes sense. Alot of people have a hard time merging perception with knowledge to create a whole
Not to mention a society that is quick to group and classify based off of correlation and not data.

You're ultimately right but here's the issue to consider. When the data shows a significant (still a minority) portion of a said group (in this case Muslims but it could be anything for this example's sake) support ideals that are antithetical to our values (Western values) and the same or another significant minority is willing to engage in violence to uphold those ideals then it becomes a situation getting a mix between good and bad. Granted, most are still going to be good but there is enough of a 'bad' presence in the mix that extreme caution is warranted. Let's say you have a bowl of 100 M&Ms and you know approximately 20 of them are poisoned while the rest are harmless. Would you still scope your hand in there and eat them without a second thought? No, the solution isn't to never eat M&Ms again but to develop a reliable filter in weeding out the poisonous ones. Until such a reliable system is in tact and in place the rational thing to do would to be abstain from eating out of the bowel altogether. Make sense?

 

[Poki]

Radical Islam and recognizing it exists.



It's simple. A regular moderate Muslim is just like any other religious person. They peacefully practice their religion as a private and community matter. They don't align themselves with elements in their religion that preaches radicalism and violence towards non-believers (this includes other Muslims that the radicals deem enemies).




Pledging allegiance to a violent group or committing violent crime in the name of your professed religion.



You're ultimately right but here's the issue to consider. When the data shows a significant (still a minority) portion of a said group (in this case Muslims but it could be anything for this example's sake) support ideals that are antithetical to our values (Western values) and the same or another significant minority is willing to engage in violence to uphold those ideals then it becomes a situation getting a mix between good and bad. Granted, most are still going to be good but there is enough of a 'bad' presence in the mix that extreme caution is warranted. Let's say you have a bowl of 100 M&Ms and you know approximately 20 of them are poisoned while the rest are harmless. Would you still scope your hand in there and eat them without a second thought? No, the solution isn't to never eat M&Ms again but to develop a reliable filter in weeding out the poisonous ones. Until such a reliable system is in tact and in place the rational thing to do would to be abstain from eating out of the bowel altogether. Make sense?

I understand what you are saying. But when the way you word it causes everyone to want to throw out the m&m's because you caused them to believe all are bad then you have in essence created the extreme trying to avoid the extreme. Unlike m&m's. You cant piss off the good ones, they are inanimate. Piss off the good ones and you poison the entire bowl. This in turn causes the fear created that all are bad bring its fear into fruition. This leads to the people you have created the fear in being justified as if it was the case the entire time.

This is how we become divided into extremes. You can see this in families, we create what we fear because we have acted on what we believe.

This is why we have elders in a society. But look at our elders, they are divided, they have already been split.

Oh well, thats for a different topic.

Bottom line is you have to work with what you have in order to be able to get where you want. Ignoring what you have will cause unwanted side affects. What we have is people, you have to work with the people that you have.

I really appreciate all the feedback.

 

[Also]

Another great analysis. There are some Christians that don't believe in the Trinity either and see Jesus and God (Yahweh) as two distinct entities with Yahweh being the only actual God.

I don't know if these groups fall under the same title. I'm sure some would argue they do and more would argue that they don't.

I chose to omit nontrinitarianism (as well as bitrinitarism, inter religious, etc.) for the simple fact that most Bible scholars would argue that the Bible supports the trinity, at the very least the idea that Jesus and Yahweh are part of the Godhead, and it is one of the most profound differences between Christianity and Islam. They both revere Jesus but His role is drastically different and I think that's important to highlight. So I did excuse nontrinitarianism for the sake of the OP's question but acknowledged that there is room for differences for practicing Christians.

 

[Lark]

Hilaire Belloc in his book on Christian Heresies describes islam as the first heresy, it being an off shoot of Judeo-Christian beliefs, Mohammed having originally been a Christian so far as I know, or maybe that was his mother, but who came under the influence of some fundamentalist jews whose concerns about idolatry over rode all other aspects of their own faith.

Jesus in the Islamic faith is just a man, just a prophet, his place was taken at the last moment by another believer, I'm not sure if the substitution was meant to have taken before or after the scourging at the pillar, in any case they dont believe that Jesus died and was resurrected from the dead. Equally as a mere mortal man Jesus was not part of the holy trinity of God, holy spirit and God incarnate.

That heresy was called Arianism, so far as I recall, which denied that Jesus was "true God and true man", its an early heresy and may appear less significant today but in its time it was very, very, very serious, the disciples saying that Jesus was not God incarnate, if the resurrection did not happen, if the God-Man did not overcome death and later be ascended into heaven then the entire faith was in vane and error. Most of the leaders of the reformation would have believed the same thing.