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Explain islam and how it intermixes with the bible

Poki

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The most common argument against this is that the Quran was written long after the Torah and the New Testament, and had many inconsistencies, one of the most glaring not being about Jesus, though there are many, but about Ishmael. My entire impression of the Quran is that Muhammad found religious texts interesting then just made up his own versions of the stories to his liking.

To back that up, just contemplate the fact that Muslims claim any inconsistencies in their version as Jews changing things after the fact, Christians being tricked, etc ...so he essentially calls BOTH GROUPS liars, even though his original source was clearly the Torah and Bible, both put together before he was even thought of. How exactly is Muhammad, one man, the person who wrote the only correct version, when the Bible was written by many people over many years, centuries before Islam existed.

This is compounded by Muhammad claiming only to be a prophet, so he this one prophet, trumps all the other Jewish prophets and Christian disciples before him. The Quaran also has no linear quality like the Bible. Just think about all that.

Have you read the quraan with an open mind and heart? I actually find ALOT of similarities to christianity. Not just the virtues christianity claims, but also the short coming of what it is in regard to christians, not the bible or jesus.

It also states in the very beginning that jewish, christians, as well as muslims are not immune to these short comings. I see the focus on christianity because it was directly prior to...aka...the big deal so to speak.

The whole jewish, christianity, muslim lineage actually reminds me of our opinionated self in regard to generations. How the previous generations are generally at war with how life should be lived for the better. Which the quraan actually tries to quench this by saying...if God wanted to he could convert everyone to be muslim because he has he power. And as such christians or jews. But he doesnt want to, so we must all learn to live in peace and get along.

It focuses on a completely different set of issues at the time that Jesus did not have to face. Its all a progression of Gods will and is desires. For us to do anything other then to aim to live in peace is against Gods will and that is from the quraan. War is self defense ONLY, the second peace is offered it MUST be taken. Not only that, but you DO NOT start a fight...from the words of the quraan...God loves the peaceful and patiently persevering. I guess i focus on different aspects of it then christians do :doh:

I dont know...i will pit what i get out of the quraan against others any day of the week and will come out ore accepting and loving then most.

Remember this...its not about Jesus or Mohammed. Its about God...the only sides are the ones we create.

Food for thought...what if each messenger was sent down to speak to a different group. He spoke in a way that reached them. To force one way or another is blinding people to the way of God, not creating unity, but seperation. Like i said, i will pit what i read from the quraan and back it up with quotes and lets see who comes out more accepting. Quraan states do not take in that you dont understand and that which can be taken different ways. These parts will mislead you, take in what is certain and follows the right path. We all know what the right path is.

Until you understand the butterfly affect and actual lineage of cause and affect you will not understand the relationship between the things in our life. You will be blinded by opinions and values which do not speak to us as truth, but thoughts, feelings, and wants.

What if the word of God is nothing more then a way to steer us to what he wants, its truth is beyond a mere right and wrong, but the truth of how we work. To truly understand the bible we must also understand ourselves? A truth beyond comprehension, that we can just comprehend as possibilities. The quraan says, if your enemy wins a fight, its because God allowed it, he has a reason that is beyond our comprehension. Just make sure your are headed down the right path...the godly path...one of peace, mercy, forgiveness as much as possible and you will be rewarded. It is what i see as martyrs, those who died in a fight that actually follows that of God. Not this radical shit we see today.

Anyway, off my high horse.
 

Thalassa

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This is something I will bookmark and look into.

Although, from what I see the beginning of Ishmael is same in Qur'an as in the Bible.

As I gave Bible verses and I can give simlar verses in Qur'an for what I posted if you wish me too.

I have yet to see past what I posted - I am still learning that. I will post scripture of both were commonalities lie, as well as differences. I think that is fair.

I have read the Bible a few times, and to my (limited) knowledge it doesn't mention Muslims as being a unified faith. If I am wrong, I would appreciate someone bringing it to my attention. "Arabs" are mentioned.

I have a *feeling* that major discrepancy will come at New Testament for Biblical reference. That is why I am curious about Injil. Since that is Jesus book in Islam. How they differ. How they are similar.


Again, it has been a while since reading. I may be missing something.

I am spiderwebbing a lot of info here while studying. It's fascinating.

The difference is in Ishmael's age (baby or young man) and whether he or Isaac received the blessing.

Arabic people are mentioned in the Old Testament, as tribes and warriors, some of whom convert to the God of Israel, because at that time there was no Islam and a lot of the equality or female power some apologists claim exists in Islam actually stems from tribal pagan Arabia, not Muhammad.

I also want to add that [MENTION=26281]geedoenfj[/MENTION] referred to the problem with Hagar being Sarah's jealousy, but the Jewish version actually blames Ishmael's character, for being a young man who worshipped idols and did not fear the Lord.
 

geedoenfj

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The difference is in Ishmael's age (baby or young man) and whether he or Isaac received the blessing.

According to Quraan they both recieved blessings as they are both prophets and it's obligatory in Islam to believe in prophets, it's one of the five pillars of belief in Islam, Isaac (peace be upon him) "the man with enormous knowledge" who is the father and grandfather of Jacob and Joseph etc. (peace be upon them all)
Ishmael is great grandfather of Mohammed..

Arabic people are mentioned in the Old Testament, as tribes and warriors, some of whom convert to the God of Israel, because at that time there was no Islam and a lot of the equality or female power some apologists claim exists in Islam actually stems from tribal pagan Arabia, not Muhammad.
Islam states that Ibraham was a Muslim, he and Ishmael built the Kaaba and started pilgrimage in Mecca, and that's what many Arab tribes did until they were corrupted and started praying for the idols and changing their manners, that's when Lord sent Mohammed to lead them to the right path.. Not only them, but the whole world..
There are some powerful Arab women before Islam, their status was depending on their social status of course, also on the place and time so you can not put a general comprehension on how women were treated.. some of them had important roles in history, war and peace, battles etc. Mohammed's wife "Khadija" who he loved the most and was the first person to stand by him and bear all difficulties until she died was an obvious example, she was a very powerful and successful business woman and the richest figure in Mecca, and she was the one who took the first step and ask to merry him, but there are women who were not as powerful or equal to men, they were part of men possessions, inherited (a son can inherit his father's wife like his other belongings), they were bought and sold by fathers and husbands, buried alive as they born, men can marry unlimited number of wives etc. but yes some of Islam teachings corresponds with those already existed within Arabs and were praised by Muslims, like bravery, feeding poors, generousity, fulfilling promises etc. and Mohammed said: "I have been sent only for the purpose of perfecting good morals" which means there were morals before Islam came in, and he also said: "People are like minerals in the case of good and evil – just like the minerals gold and silver. Those who were best among them before the advent of Islam would continue to be the best among them after Islam, if they develop a thorough understanding in God’s religion"

I also want to add that [MENTION=26281]geedoenfj[/MENTION] referred to the problem with Hagar being Sarah's jealousy, but the Jewish version actually blames Ishmael's character, for being a young man who worshipped idols and did not fear the Lord.

Jelousy doesn't imply a problem or being a bad person, she never was unfair to Hagar based on that jelousy, some Islamic resources reported (and I don't know how trusted they are) that this is the main reason why she asked him to take Hagar away so that her heart would not hate or hold gurdges, and IF it is so, that's pretty understandable, it's her right as woman to live with her husband in a house that is only hers, and let that other wife live in another house, that is not something illegal to be required, and doesn't imply any kind of problems.. They're both highly respected figures in Islam and mothers of prophets, maybe Sara is even have a higher status as she is his first wife and stood up for him in the most difficult times in his long journey..
However the relationship between Sara and Hagar were not mentioned in Quraan, all it mentioned is Gods orders to leave Hagar and Ishmael in the desert then the rest of the story..
I would like to know if there's anything mentioned about where Ishmael lived and did he have any descendants? He's the 13th grandfather of Mohammed and I can give you the tree and history of those all, Arabs know their ancestors for hundreds of years because they're tribes and families and take pride of their grandparents..
 
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geedoenfj

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Ok I don't know from where the source of this story is, but I never heard of it.. I will tell the version that the vast majority of Arabs and Muslims agree on.. [MENTION=12103]Poki[/MENTION] [MENTION=5223]MDP2525[/MENTION] in case you guys are interested :)

Islam was started with Mohammed though. Mohammed was an interesting historical character. We only have fragments of his actual life, most of it is hearsay and based on verbal tradition. What most scholars agree with on Mohammed about is that he had a turbulent childhood. Initially he came from a prominent family (prominent for a desert people, not soaked in riches) but his father died before he was even born. Mohammed lived with between foster parents (some abusive), grandparents, and was even orphaned completely. His mother died when he was very young too. He eventually was raised by the desert Bedouins learning how to thrive in that life.

'Prominent for a desert people not soaked in riches' yes they're descendants of Ishmael the son of Ibraham, although there were some very rich families in Mecca but his family was considered a middle class (for desert people), honorable ansestors and history, not very rich people..
his father died before he was born that's right, and his tribe "Quraish" had the habit of sending their babies to the desert with wet nurses from "Saads" a beduin tribe in return of some (gifts) given to Saad's, so they would play in an open space in the fresh air, and they believed that beduins are physically healthier and more attached to Arabic values, wisedom and pureness, they thought the beduin women would inherit those characteristics to their children via breastfeeding, and the view of desert shall broadens their preceptions as they become grownups, that's why he stayed with beduins until he was 2, neither after his mother's death, nor after his (abusive) grandparents raised him, that he stayed with beduins.. and -obviously- a baby or a toddler at age of 2 is not yet capable of learning how to thrive those beduins' life..
His mother died when he was 6, his paternal grandfather took him to his house, the grandfather had so many wives and children, and in this situation Mohammed was just one person in the crowd thus didn't receive a special care, he never been taught to read and write, never did in his entire life, nevertheless, he never suffered from (abusive) grandparents or parents, actually he recieved a good share of love by his grandfather's wife "Hala" who was so kind to him and treated him like one of her boys, until the age of 8, that's when his grandfather died and his uncle "Abo Talib" who was as much nice and kind, decided to take him to his house and raise him..
And another thing, as a prominent family, he was never given up by his family "the Hashemites" never ever in his entire life, specially in life of his uncle Abo Talib, and you can definitely notice that when you know that there was a time when they were afraid that there's a threat for his life because of the new relegion, they actually all moved from their homes to the suburbs of Mecca "Shu'ab bany Hashim" to protect him, they made him switch his position among their houses each night so that no one of the other clans of Quraish would know were he is staying, although a considerable number of Hashemites were not even Muslims back then, but during "Boycott of Hashemites" they have chosen to suffer from hunger (and many of them eventually died of hunger) rather than giving up on (A cousin) that they didn't even believe in his new relegion, except for his uncle "Abo Lahab" there have not been any single member of the Hashemites ever gave up on him for the entire 3 years (until the end of boycott), because prominent Arabic families used to be incredibly unified for sake of the family, and there's no way they had given up on him and left him with beduins.
Besides, when a person resort to any Arabic family, they shall give him a place and shelter, so he would become their "moualy" or "mawla" which means "an ally", thus even -supposedly- if his family gave up on him, he would not need to resort to any beduin tribe but to another generous family, that would be more convincing..
Another thing, the moment a beduin is working on marchandise is were he supposed to have settled down and became citizen and not a beduin anymore, which make the story that he left to be raised by beduins unreliable..

Somewhere along his life he became a merchant and would travel all throughout the Mediterranean. Legend says Mohammed considered himself a moral guy and he was first exposed to Abrahamic religion by a Christian monk who told him he's the prophet of God. Mohammed was interested in faith though. It's through his merchant position that he became heavily exposed to Christianity and Judaism. Mohammed probably appreciated how both religions were a unifying factor between different groups of people. Jews for centuries have maintained their homogeneity because of their faith and felt a strong sense of kinship (even if there was political/spiritual difference between various prominent Jews). In Mohammed's day he saw how Christianity was a unifying force between various peoples on the Mediterranean. When he looked at his own lot, the desert Beduoin pegans, he saw little unity and common identity though he recognized they were one Arab-Berber 'super ethnicity.' Basically, Mohammed used a strict interpretation of a popular monotheistic religion to unite his people into a single identity with a purpose. Mohammed saw his people as people of the book (Bible/Torah) too since all of Abraham's descendants existed in his region.

Mohammed's tactics are a different subject but that's my two cents.

He wasn't the one who introduced himself as a moral man, people used to address him by "the honest-truthful" as he never lied in his life, and used to have high work ethics, he built an excellent reputation socially as a merciful, kind, and wise man, and in the market with honest treatment over the years, and they knew they can trust him with their money and belongings.
Before his work in marchandise, he worked as a shepherd at age of 8, eventually relaizing at a very young age that nothing can be taken for granted in life, he decided to have more independency, he was determined to make some money for himself, then at age of 10, he asked his uncle Abo Talib to work on merchandise with him, and he did..
The only time that he met a monk in Syria was by coincidence, he was only 10, whilst he became a prophet at age of 40.. the monk just made a notice of how he has a cloud over his head whenever he goes (a notice that was made by most people that have known him) and have some physical characteristics that was described by the holy book of the up coming prophet, specially the body mark on his left shoulder, that was the only time that he ever saw that monk.. it's not only that he couldn't read or write is that makes it impossible for him to learn those books from anywhere, and not the fact that Abo Talib the very conservative man who refused to became a Muslim until his death that wouldn't let him learn anything about other relegions, or at least would admit that he was taught by a monk during those trips, it's that he never showed an interest in relegions, he didn't worship the idols because he wasn't convinced that a rock and wood should be worshipped, he was not the only one or the first one to have this opinion among Arabs though..
And yes he was interested in politics and his uncle used to take him to Quraish elites gatherings in the place of "Dar Alnadwa" where they used to discuss interior issues of Mecca, the local and international political situations, war and peace, business etc. but linking that to uniting Barber-Arab as 'super ethnicity' is invalid for several reasons:
1. Barber were geographically faraway from their area, they're in north Africa, they had a role in Islamic history but many years after Mohammed's death..
2. He sent messages to Kings of Roman, Persian, Egypt calling them to Islam, so it is not about Arabs only..
2. There are more than 10 of Mohammed's companians who made significant sacrifices were non Arabs and are among the most important figures in Islamic history...
people like Bilal bin Rabah the first muzzin (prayers caller) in Islam, an African slave who suffered from torturement by his master who tried to force him to give up on his relegion but he never did, not even in a single word until Abu Bakir bought him and freed him calling him a brother and a friend...
Or Sumayyah bint Khayyat, the African servent, the first martyr in Islam who died under torturement and was preached with heaven by Mohammed before she died..
Or Suhaib Al Roumi, the Romanian man who couldn't wear clothes with material other than silk for the rest of his life as of how damaged his skin was because of the torturement he received to force him to leave Islam..
Or Salman Alfaresi, the persian man who suggested the idea of digging a trench to protect "Almadina" from the coming army..
Do you really think those people have chosen to stood up and sacrifice for a relegion that calls for Arabs superiority??
3. According to Islam no race and ethnicity is superior, all men are equal and it's forbidden to discriminate against people, and I can give you evidences from Quraan and sunna..
In Quraan it says "O mankind, indeed we have created you from male and female, and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another, indeed the most noble of you in the sight of Lord is the most righteous of you" Al Hogurat sura V No. 13
Mohammed said: "There's no difference between an Arab and non Arab, black or white, rich and poor but expect in piety"
And this man who had a fight with Bilal bin Rabah and in the midst of that he cursed him saying "you son of a balck woman" so Bilal went to Mohammed and complained about this man, Mohammed got so angry and told him: "YOU ARE A MAN OF IGNORANCE!!" and forced him to apologize and never do anything like that ever again, som sources said that the man felt so bad that he put his cheek on the ground and told Bilal to put his foot on his head so that this (ignorance) goes away from him, but Bilal refused and told him yhe forgive him..
These are just some examples..

I just thought it is necessary to clarify things, I hope this was informative..
 
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