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Gender

Yama

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So you're saying a lot more people are trans like WUR, me, chanaynay, all the feelers males and all the thinker females?

:p

Cis isn't related to sexuality, just gender identity. So if you guys identify with your birth sex, you're cis. If not, you're not cis.

Wait why do you mention chan? He's a cis dude. It even says on his tumblr profile. I'm not as familiar with how the rest of you identify.
 

Forever

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Cis isn't related to sexuality, just gender identity. So if you guys identify with your birth sex, you're cis. If not, you're not cis.

Wait why do you mention chan? He's a cis dude. It even says on his tumblr profile. I'm not as familiar with how the rest of you identify.

>.< Idk. Well Chan is excused.

Idk.. I don't like the word cisgender makes it imply that there are supposed to be male and female genders correlated with the sex. I understand it was for equality in terms of the transgender term. But it sounds deeply disturbing to me.
 

magpie

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I did mention hermaphroditism though... I know it's not always clean cut.

That snippet of article references hermaphroditism indirectly, yes, though I think intersex is the term that's used now. I meant it more in reference to the 1 in 2000 people with genitalia too ambiguous to determine sex from. Which is different than being a hermaphrodite. 1 in 2000 people is really common. Also sort of goes to show that what we determine biological sex from is arbitrary and changeable depending on the person. Sex reassignment surgery at birth is a thing that happens sometimes too, I think probably mostly with intersex people. Here's an article on it if anyone's interested: A shift away from surgery on babies of indeterminate gender. There are other articles out there too.
 

Forever

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That snippet of article references hermaphroditism indirectly, yes, though I think intersex is the term that's used now. I meant it more in reference to the 1 in 2000 people with genitalia too ambiguous to determine sex from. Which is different than being a hermaphrodite. 1 in 2000 people is really common. Also sort of goes to show that what we determine biological sex from is arbitrary and changeable depending on the person. Sex reassignment surgery at birth is a thing that happens sometimes too, I think probably mostly with intersex people. Here's an article on it if anyone's interested: A shift away from surgery on babies of indeterminate gender. There are other articles out there too.

Well I guess I was covering more meaning with one word than it implied so.. sorry for that but yes I am aware of that. But thank you anyway :)
 

violet_crown

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I consider my nonbinary siblings trans since trans really just means "not cis." :shrug:

So you're saying a lot more people are trans like WUR, me, chanaynay, all the feelers males and all the thinker females?

:p

My comment was more along the lines of people who not only identify a certain way but present (hopefully that's the right word) as such. Like, whatever masculine traits I may have, I'm still cool with peeing in the girls bathroom, and want "Female" on my drivers license. If a given identity makes a significant impact on how someone lives and gets along in society, then it should be supported and protected by the law so people can be who they are without bullshit.


Strict gender identity is one of those Fi values that I do not cherish.

I can't speak for all Fi-users, but I understand the fluidity of gender identity as well as anyone. Unlike an Fe user, I don't need someone else to recognize that identity in order for me to know its valid. I am myself first and foremost. If you need a label to wrap your head around that--that's your prerogative--but the onus is not on me to supply it.
 

Forever

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My comment was more along the lines of people who not only identify a certain way but present (hopefully that's the right word) as such. Like, whatever masculine traits I may have, I'm still cool with peeing in the girls bathroom, and want "Female" on my drivers license.

I am only speaking about gender, not of sex. Like I'm okay with peeing in the men's bathroom and having male on my driver's liscence too.

There's a difference between transgender and transsexual.
 

violet_crown

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I am only speaking about gender, not of sex.

Hm. Maybe I misunderstood Luxy's comment? I had said something at the end of post before that about trans(sexual) rights and I thought his response was to that. I also may have just included your post when I meant to like it. :unsure:
 

Forever

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Hm. Maybe I misunderstood Luxy's comment? I had said something at the end of post before that about trans(sexual) rights and I thought his response was to that. I also may have just included your post when I meant to like it. :unsure:

Well I proposed we remove gender completely and all we'd all be fun because there'd be no meaning from pure sexual basis other than medical wise transexuals could change to their desires sex if they wanted to, lux said no, gender is still as important as a social role to fulfill and it is a part of his identity.

I then went on to gender and yeah...
 

Kheledon

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I can't speak for all Fi-users, but I understand the fluidity of gender identity as well as anyone. Unlike an Fe user, I don't need someone else to recognize that identity in order for me to know its valid. I am myself first and foremost. If you need a label to wrap your head around that--that's your prerogative--but the onus is not on me to supply it.

Well, indeed. Nor did I ask you to "validate" my gender in any way, though I think it's true that strong extraverts are little more than what the world reflects back to them. In that sense, I suppose I do want people to acknowledge the gender role I attempt to project so that, when it's reflected back to me, I can have a more stable sense of my own identity.

Introversion/extraversion is widely misunderstood, imo. Introverts have a guarded, core identity. They know who they are, but they have more trouble interacting with people and the world, in general. Extraverts are, essentially, nothing by themselves, with very little core identity. That makes them natural relationship-builders and comfortable interacting with the world, but they also have trouble being alone and can never really feel comfortable living "in their own skin," so to speak.
 

Yama

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>.< Idk. Well Chan is excused.

Idk.. I don't like the word cisgender makes it imply that there are supposed to be male and female genders correlated with the sex. I understand it was for equality in terms of the transgender term. But it sounds deeply disturbing to me.

Ah. I don't think either cis or trans are negative terms, but if you are uncomfortable with it, I won't use it on you.
 

Yama

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And [MENTION=7254]Wind Up Rex[/MENTION] (I'm on my phone now so quoting is too hard) dw you're cool. :wink: I was just mentioning that it's hard for nonbinary people since they wish they could present as neither gender or that they could switch between which gender they present whenever they want etc, but that most people don't really understand that. I actuslly think it's "harder" to be nonbinary than (traditionally) transgender. :p
 

violet_crown

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Well I proposed we remove gender completely and all we'd all be fun because there'd be no meaning from pure sexual basis other than medical wise transexuals could change to their desires sex if they wanted to, lux said no, gender is still as important as a social role to fulfill and it is a part of his identity.

I then went on to gender and yeah...

That's a really interesting thought. I don't know why we have a gender in the first place. Why do we need it if we're just going to change it anyways? I can't remember where I read it, but I saw it suggested somewhere that children shouldn't be assigned genders at all. Instead, we would wait until a kid's 11-12, the onset of puberty basically, and then have a party where they announce what gender they've decided on. I think that would take a lot of pressure off of the situation.

Transsexuality is harder for me to grasp intellectually. I think a person's sex matters only insofar as the gender matters, because sex is more fixed than gender. I don't think anymore about being female than I do about having brown eyes, but that's probably a privilege of being cis? I could see hating having a female body if I knew I were a man. At the same time, there's all kinds of ways that what I look like and who I know I am don't line up, and I get a perverse pleasure out of that discrepancy and playing on those expectations.

And [MENTION=7254]Wind Up Rex[/MENTION] (I'm on my phone now so quoting is too hard) dw you're cool. :wink: I was just mentioning that it's hard for nonbinary people since they wish they could present as neither gender or that they could switch between which gender they present whenever they want etc, but that most people don't really understand that. I actuslly think it's "harder" to be nonbinary than (traditionally) transgender. :p

Not to be a smartass, but if gender is a continuum, isn't everyone to some extent nonbinary?
 

Yama

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Sure, I don't see why they couldn't be. But I also think being agender or gender fluid is harder to "present" since most people will automatically gender them on sight and it might not match what they feel like. Especially with agender

Edit: [MENTION=7254]Wind Up Rex[/MENTION] since I didn't quote :p
 

Yama

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It's kinda like hoe sexuality is on a spectrum. People who are MOSTLY straight or MOSTLY gay usually just identify as straight or gay even if they're more like 90% and not 100%. It's up to the individual to choose how they like to define themselves.
 

Magic Poriferan

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I don't agree with the notion of eliminating the concept of gender all together. As I see it, it seems more like a statement of "you aren't allowed to be any gender", and misses the point completely that it strives for. People will always put themselves in boxes, and forcing change to prevent that won't stop it. Because of this, I disagree with those that assert no gender is valid. Social construct are not inheriently evil, and as humans we'll never rid ourselves of them, and it's foolish to try to do so. What we can and should do instead, is strive to make those fair.

That social constructs are evil is not a point that needs to be made. Gender, however, seems to have been a negative force in human history. And though people may put themselves in boxes, what kind of boxes they even put themselves in change, as in, the premise that those boxes pertain to.

This then leads to saying all genders are valid, which is really a subset of saying all identities are valid. However, it doesn't make all of them real. Most are though. Can people pretend? Sure, no harm no foul, be who you want. However, if something isn't real, then it's hard to take it seriously in the way of rights and benefits specific to that.

Since you bother making that distinction: In what sense do you mean real, and which ones qualify as real?

Personally, I don't even look at lists like that, I just go about my business and meet new people. If they say they are cis, trans, agender, or something in between or whatever, ok cool. It would all serve us better to try and look at the person BEFORE putting them in a box. Putting in a box first causes problems, and it's the big root of gender issues in the modern era.

But that's the very point of a master category. If it wasn't something you could draw instant conclusions from without knowing the person, there'd be no reason for it to exist at all. There isn't a happy, innocuous middle ground. You don't keep track of these boxes, or you make assumptions about everyone in them. Basically, it's like how it's bullshit any time someone tells you the gender and race boxes you check on forms don't make a difference. They will tell you that legally it's not supposed to, but actual data shows it does. The check box always matters, and if it didn't, why would it exist?

My concern is over what is perhaps some confusion about this idea of validity, or realness. I don't want any chains on the things associated with gender. All of the typically gender associated behaviors are things I think everyone should be able to do in whatever way they want, and they shouldn't even have to point to any archetypes to rationalize or justify it. When people make a discreet list of acceptable categories, that typically leads to some sort of reification, those are then considered the real ones, typically in a sense that goes beyond social construction. Problems ensue.

I might not be as concerned about this if I were not seeing a upwelling of gender essentialism emerge among the very liberal activists and intellectuals who I would have expected to reject such things. Internal conflict is developing over LGBT issues and all that stuff resulting from a growing voice (though I do not know if it actually reflects a growing population) who take essentialist stances to be a part of accepting LGBT people and respecting their rights, vs the somewhat more established position of deconstructivism that rejects any intrinsic or natural idea of these things other than biological sex (and you could see Judith Butler and others for some interesting questions about how we even conceptualize that).
 

Forever

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Don't be sad :( I don't think anything is wrong with either of us. We're all awesome ;)

Okay. :) well it makes me sad when observing how boys try to act so tough all because it is some social norm, they're making themselves truly unhappy with who they are themselves. Like I have to harm people to be cool or I have to swear to be cool. It's like really none of those shouldn't be the "cool" thing to do.

I see 7 year olds using the f word now. I may sound ultra conservative here but children that young should be who they are untainted by the world and films and stuff because those stuff aren't real and being defined that early creates psychological problems.
 

Yama

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Okay. :) well it makes me sad when observing how boys try to act so tough all because it is some social norm, they're making themselves truly unhappy with who they are themselves. Like I have to harm people to be cool or I have to swear to be cool. It's like really none of those shouldn't be the "cool" thing to do.

I see 7 year olds using the f word now. I may sound ultra conservative here but children that young should be who they are untainted by the world and films and stuff because those stuff aren't real and being defined that early creates psychological problems.

Yeah I think gender norms like that are way too consteicting. Girls and boys should do whatever the hell they want. I have both girly interests and boyish interests and I don't attribute that to my gender.

Also, my gender identity is a personal identity for me rather than fulfilling a social role. :wink:

It's about owning and being proud of who I am and not feeling bad or guilty.
 
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