Does forgiveness mean excusing one's actions?

[SearchingforPeace]

I have forgiven extremely painful things others have done to me. Most of the things were done intentionally. The individuals involved never truly acknowledged the harm they caused directly, just very obliquely. They never apologized.

I understand the why of their behavior. I have delved deep into the emotions of those that did these things. So, I could justify why they ached the way they did, causing harm intentionally to me, an innocent party.

But forgiveness isn't about the other person. It is about me. It is about my own happiness.

Would I like a full apology and a sincere attempt to right the wrong they caused? Yes. It would be wonderful. Does my life and happiness depend on it? No.

So, it might seem like "excusing". I would fully be justified in holding their behavior against them until they make amends and acknowledge the harm. But withholding forgiveness only would hurt me and that isn't worth my time.

 

[Cellmold]

Depends what the action is.

And even more importantly it depends on the emotions of the moment and those involved. It's never a settled, organised, element (despite how many like to pretend it is).

To say "I forgive" and follow through is a constipation of intent that is incredibly hard to prove and demonstrate.

 

[Arctic Hysteria]

You forgive when you finally stop letting what somebody did to you affect you negatively on a daily basis, emotionally and physically; and you no longer seek to revenge, neither do you wish them to pay for what they did.

 

[Cellmold]

You forgive when you finally stop letting what somebody did to you affect you negatively on a daily basis, emotionally and physically; and you no longer seek to revenge, neither do you wish them to pay for what they did.

I wonder how one consciously reaches that stage.

 

[Arctic Hysteria]

I wonder how one consciously reaches that stage.

It's funny how things like this DO come to you overnight. One day you wake up and you're just there.

In my case, I got to this stage with one figure in my life as I grew up and bigger, sadder things happened, and so what he did to me became more bearable. I also spent years trying to understand what made he did what he did, and it was because he was never healthy psychologically. He, too, a victim of himself.
I guess in lots of cases, you forgive simply because shit gets old and you're too tired of aching the same pain.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

It's funny how things like this DO come to you overnight. One day you wake up and you're just there.

In my case, I got to this stage with one figure in my life as I grew up and bigger, sadder things happened, and so what he did to me became more bearable. I also spent years trying to understand what made he did what he did, and it was because he was never healthy psychologically. He, too, a victim of himself.
I guess in lots of cases, you forgive simply because shit gets old and you're too tired of aching the same pain.

+1

I noticed an overwhelming sense of forgiveness for others I usually blame (my ex) when I realized I have BPD.

Maybe seeing how imperfect I am helped?

Like those are forgiven much, love much?

edit: I still don't agree with most of his actions, but the love and forgiveness I had toward him yesterday (and still today, pretty much) makes everything else pale in comparison.

 

[Cellmold]

It's funny how things like this DO come to you overnight. One day you wake up and you're just there.

In my case, I got to this stage with one figure in my life as I grew up and bigger, sadder things happened, and so what he did to me became more bearable. I also spent years trying to understand what made he did what he did, and it was because he was never healthy psychologically. He, too, a victim of himself.
I guess in lots of cases, you forgive simply because shit gets old and you're too tired of aching the same pain.

Interesting.

I've got no personal experience of this and my ability to forgive seems poor. I still pain myself over events that happened when I was small, despite my best efforts to forget or forgive.

 

[Forever]

Here's a nice clean answer. You know they did something wrong but you don't let the issue hurt you or hurt the offender emotionally anymore.

Inb4 disagreements and "it's not that simple" arrive.

In case it doesn't happen, I lied on that last statement. So forgive me for that if it happens, will you oh positive integer that comes right after 20 deluxe with "dee" taken out?

 

[Arctic Hysteria]

Interesting.

I've got no personal experience of this and my ability to forgive seems poor. I still pain myself over events that happened when I was small, despite my best efforts to forget or forgive.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still suffering from the aftermaths. But I've stopped blaming what that person did for the pain, and I can look back at things with a bit of humour most of the time. One day, when your life is filled with too much love, you'll start getting rid of the ugly clutter to make more space.

 

[Lark]

You forgive when you finally stop letting what somebody did to you affect you negatively on a daily basis, emotionally and physically; and you no longer seek to revenge, neither do you wish them to pay for what they did.

I dont know that I could honestly say that I would ever be in a position were I felt a wrong done to myself or anyone I care about would not deserve an answer in the form of revenge, or as I would put it some kind of satisfaction, it may have resulted in might makes right but I think that in some ways the rule of honourific societies in which individuals could call out those who had done them injury in a duel and best them or die trying reflected this more truly that our present day.

The fact that anyone engaging in any sort of wrong doing has to think about the possibility of revenge, retaliation or response to the injury, at the very least, is something, though I think the authorities afford a lot of protection to the "honest" thief and offender than they do most other people, often they have the closest relationships, can do a service to one another that the "gallery" of victims and their kin can not or will not.

A judge who taught a criminology class when I was at university the first time used to teach that one of the objective roles a prison played was to provide prisoners with security from those they had done wrong to.

 

[geedoenfj]

No it means that you're more mature, balanced, strong and have the ability to free your mind and heart from negative energy that is damaging you, do I really want to damage myself even more than that person did? No not at all..
But this will be a lesson for me to be more picky about who I trust and how I behave or what to expect in order to avoid these people's harmful actions

 

[Kheledon]

I have struggled with the concept of "forgiveness" for much of my life. I agree with those who say that forgiveness benefits the forgiver more than the forgiven. The best way I have heard this concept described goes something like this, and this is how I have come to understand it:

Forgiveness is a gift that you give yourself. Someone wronged you. You are hurt, yes, but you have already suffered enough as a result of what that person did to you. Forgiveness means to stop thinking about it, dwelling on it, obsessing about it, and re-living the pain. Why keep beating yourself up for something that someone else did to you? Failure to forgive means continuing to beat yourself up for the actions of another person. In this context, it's rational and self-preserving to forgive. Let it go. If you keep beating yourself up for something that another person did to you, you are only hurting yourself.​

That particular formulation is the first I have found that seems to work for me. Forgiveness really does mean "trying to forget" the injury. Refusing to "forget" the injury doesn't actually protect you from future harm. Rather, refusing to "forgive and forget" is akin to self-flagellation and self-immolation ... pointless and self-destructive (and I admit to being prone to this kind of behavior).

Now, for the legal lesson of the day--the doctrine of condonation. Under the English common law (still the backbone of the jurisprudence of 49 of the 50 states in the United States--Louisiana is the Code Napoleon-dominated exception), in the context of marriage, having sex with your spouse after you have knowledge of a specific injury that your spouse has inflicted upon you is an act of condonation, i.e. you have condoned the injury, and you can never hold that specific offense against your spouse in Court under any circumstance. Upon discovering the offense, having sex subsequently with your spouse means that you have "legally forgiven" your spouse.

Seems weird, perhaps, but that's the law in most states.

(Hope this little side-note doesn't derail a very interesting thread).

 

[GIjade]

Forgiveness is a gift that you give yourself. Someone wronged you. You are hurt, yes, but you have already suffered enough as a result of what that person did to you. Forgiveness means to stop thinking about it, dwelling on it, obsessing about it, and re-living the pain. Why keep beating yourself up for something that someone else did to you? Failure to forgive means continuing to beat yourself up for the actions of another person. In this context, it's rational and self-preserving to forgive. Let it go. If you keep beating yourself up for something that another person did to you, you are only hurting yourself.​

That particular formulation is the first I have found that seems to work for me. Forgiveness really does mean "trying to forget" the injury. Refusing to "forget" the injury doesn't actually protect you from future harm. Rather, refusing to "forgive and forget" is akin to self-flagellation and self-immolation ... pointless and self-destructive (and I admit to being prone to this kind of behavior).

You know, I think it depends on what the injury/injuries were. If it's something that one can really put behind them, knowing it won't happen again, fine, yes, forgiveness is the way to go. However, if you know the injuries are going to continue, and of course, your boundaries are consistently being violated, and/or if the injury is such that many, many other people were involved, for instance, someone took nude photos of you and dealt them out to the entire world to view without your knowledge or permission, thus ruining your reputation forever, or making it so that the quality of your life is compromised by people who didn't even know you in the first place but who now know every detail of your nude body and what you did with it with people whom you trusted, well, then, no.

 

[Kheledon]

You know, I think it depends on what the injury/injuries were. If it's something that one can really put behind them, knowing it won't happen again, fine, yes, forgiveness is the way to go. However, if you know the injuries are going to continue, and of course, your boundaries are consistently being violated, and/or if the injury is such that many, many other people were involved, for instance, someone took nude photos of you and dealt them out to the entire world to view without your knowledge or permission, thus ruining your reputation forever, or making it so that the quality of your life is compromised by people who didn't even know you in the first place but who now know every detail of your nude body and what you did with it with people whom you trusted, well, then, no.

I hear you, but my point was (in part) that you can never be certain that the same person won't injure you in the same way again. If that's what's required for forgiveness, then you can never forgive, and my further point was that you can never undo the injury. It would be impossible, given your example, to get those nude photos erased from the internet. As such, I think it's better to "forget" the injury, to the extent you can, because you can never have complete certainty that you won't be injured again, and ruminating on the pain seems to serve no purpose--you're just beating yourself up for something that someone else did to you.

Personally, I beat myself up over things I have done to others that I regret. I have trouble forgiving myself, but, as difficult as this may be to actually achieve, I see the wisdom of not beating yourself up for things that you can't control, and you just can't control the actions of others.

 

[GIjade]

I hear you, but my point was (in part) that you can never be certain that the same person won't injure you in the same way again.

Given the example I posted, one could be sure that the same thing wouldn't happen again if they didn't allow the perp to get near them again. However, stalkers do weird things, like install cameras in private residences. So, yeah, one can never be sure.

If that's what's required for forgiveness, then you can never forgive,

that is what is required for me, personally to forgive someone. To know they will not do the same thing again. If you allow people to continue in their bad behavior, you're not only letting your own boundaries be breached, but you're telling them it's ok to do what they did and continue to do. Like, ok, I forgive you, go ahead and do it some more! Nope. Not gonna happen.

and my further point was that you can never undo the injury.

No, you can't. And if the perp asked for forgiveness and I knew he was sincere, believed him, trusted that what he was saying was genuine, I would forgive that person. However, even forgiveness for that one terrible thing (or however many things that person did) doesn't mean that your will ever be able to trust the or believe them again, so its kind of hard to forgive someone when you can't trust that they won't do it again. So, yeah, no forgiveness.

It would be impossible, given your example, to get those nude photos erased from the internet. As such, I think it's better to "forget" the injury, to the extent you can, because you can never have complete certainty that you won't be injured again, and ruminating on the pain seems to serve no purpose--you're just beating yourself up for something that someone else did to you.

It wasn't just the internet, believe me. But, to speak to your point here, I really don't ruminate about it, and I definitely don't beat myself up for it, after all, I didn't do something unforgivable, they did.

Personally, I beat myself up over things I have done to others that I regret. I have trouble forgiving myself, but, as difficult as this may be to actually achieve, I see the wisdom of not beating yourself up for things that you can't control, and you just can't control the actions of others.

I, too, have difficulty forgiving myself for something I did to someone that I regretted. But honestly, I don't have that many regrets in that regard, which is why I have so much trouble understanding how people can do the kinds of things to other people that is so destructive and hurtful. I would never intentionally hurt someone who didn't deserve it, though I can say that I have it in me to hurt someone who intentionally hurt me or my loved ones or someone who hurt an innocent, helpless person or animal. That, I am not ashamed to admit at all.

 

[Kheledon]

Given the example I posted, one could be sure that the same thing wouldn't happen again if they didn't allow the perp to get near them again.

Quite true, but that wouldn't be what I'd call "forgiveness."

that is what is required for me, personally to forgive someone. To know they will not do the same thing again.

If so, then you can't "forgive," as I understand the term. We all have our boundaries, and it's healthy to have them. I recognize this, despite the fact that I suck at it and am in the habit of playing doormat, instead.

No, you can't. And if the perp asked for forgiveness and I knew he was sincere, believed him, trusted that what he was saying was genuine, I would forgive that person. However, even forgiveness for that one terrible thing (or however many things that person did) doesn't mean that your will ever be able to trust the or believe them again, so its kind of hard to forgive someone when you can't trust that they won't do it again. So, yeah, no forgiveness. (Emphasis added by @Kheledon.)

That does seem to be what you're saying, yes.

I, too, have difficulty forgiving myself for something I did to someone that I regretted. But honestly, I don't have that many regrets in that regard, which is why I have so much trouble understanding how people can do the kinds of things to other people that is so destructive and hurtful. I would never intentionally hurt someone who didn't deserve it, though I can say that I have it in me to hurt someone who intentionally hurt me or my loved ones or someone who hurt an innocent, helpless person or animal. That, I am not ashamed to admit at all.

I am with you here. If there's any value in beating yourself up over the past, it's that doing so may prevent you from making the same mistakes repeatedly. You can't control others, but you can control yourself.

Thanks for the interesting exchange.

 

[GIjade]

Quite true, but that wouldn't be what I'd call "forgiveness."

Maybe you and I have different definitions of the term, forgiveness. I believe forgiveness is something one does to let the past go and let go of all the destructive feelings one might have toward the person who they believed wronged them. However, that does not mean one needs to keep that person in their life.

Thanks for the interesting exchange.

Interesting, yes.

 

[ZNP-TBA]

Not forgiving could be a perfectly healthy thing. It's kind of a way of protecting ourselves against future wrong doing from the source. I'm not the type to hold on to grudges ( I have no grudge to speak of) but I hold other people to the same forgiveness standard that I hold myself. If I've seriously wronged someone then I look at it as if I took something from them and it's up to me to restitute that (I.e. it's on me to earn their forgiveness). If I can't demonstrate that I've earned forgiveness then I shouldn't be given any. If someone doesn't earn my forgiveness then I basically just non-person them don't waste a single ounce of energy thinking about them or doing anything with them. I usually leave the door open for reconciliation depending on the situation.

 

[Masokissed]

You can forgive someone but not excuse their actions.

 

[Yama]

I don't know if I want to forgive her. She's not a part of my life anymore and hasn't been for a very long time, so choosing to forgive would just be something I do for my own peace of mind rather than other reasons. Maybe I feel like forgiving her would mean that I'm telling myself that what she did was okay when it's not, even though that doesn't have to be the case. I'm not mad at her. Maybe I just need to learn to let go, but in a way that makes it feel like if I forgive her, that I'm not allowed to care anymore, not allowed to be sad or angry if I want to be. In truth I haven't been sad or angry even though I really want to be and I hate feeling so apathetic and detached. I forgot how to cry and haven't cried in months even when I've really wanted to. So if I forgive her then I'm letting go of those emotions before I've really had a chance to experience them.

Maybe one day I can forgive. I don't know if I'm ready yet though.