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  1. #21
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    [What is toxic to society is unrealistic idealism, like passifism for example; it's just not congruent with reality. Neither is opening a country's borders to anyone who wants to walk in without detrimental consequences to that nation's security and economy. Expecting gun-free zones to keep people safe from armed criminals who disregard the law is also an unrealistic ideal.[/QUOTE]

    "Unrealistic pacifism" is not congruent with reality, indeed. That's why it's unrealistic. There's no realistic idealism per se, because if we dream of whatever already being the way it is, it's not idealism. Having said that, I understand that it has to be in terms that can be achievable, otherwise it's just science fiction. But I rarely see how science fiction can be harmful. I hate armies, guns, bombs, and if I could, I'd go to live in the middle of the forest, having my own vegetables to eat, surrounded by people who want to live in peace, and that, A) doesn't harm anyone, B) doesn't mean I'm oblivious to the reality others are living, and C) I don't know why every country "should be" like the US. I live in a country that, with its handful of problems, promotes the cultural exchange, where military service is optional, where there are free clinics and hospitals, free education, where we don't need armies except for celebrating the Independence anniversary or such. And just because I understand opinions I don't respect, I'm going to end this paragraph here.

    What it's toxic to society is living in fear, is the reality in itself: bombs, wars, women being bought and sold like cattle, organ traffic, corruption, ambition etc. Those who never chose to live in a world like that have the choice to change it or avoid it. And it's harmless.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    making the world we have work is a better world. If you look at all the damage idealism has done in this world.
    Really?

    I'd say the disappearence of legal slavery, indentured labour, bonded labour, serfdom, slave labour conditions, poverty/subsistence wages, dangerous and life threatening working conditions and the shooting down of striking workers are all steps in the right direction.

    Though I've got a reverence for life and interest in law and order.

    Maybe the holy fucking hell of pre-industrial or industrialising capitalism or the days in which there was no check upon theft, violence, murder, rape, torture or anything else like it were the good ould days to you but its not a popular view. I'd say on balance its not even a sane one.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    1) If you view it as is and decide not to change it, you are flirting with nihilism.
    Sometimes there is nothing that can be done to change things. It's not that you've decided not to change it, you just can't. And then there's that Serenity prayer, you know, accept that which you cannot change. Well, I can't change it but I can't accept it either. This is usually how I view most of the idealistic views I have. I am almost a nihilist, although not totally.
    “Oh, what a tangled web we weave...when first we practice to deceive.”
    ― Walter Scott, Marmion

  4. #24
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    Being an idealist and being effective aren't mutually exclusive. Not all idealistic people have their heads so deep in the clouds they forget to actually take action to bring about change. The problems are when people form ideals without compassion & regard for human value, blindly pursue their ideals without understanding real-life consequences, spend all their time forming ideals without any action behind it, or imagine reality is much closer to the ideal than it truly is. The latter two aren't useful, and the former two can form dangerous ideals that cause a great deal of suffering in the world. (Some of the most destructive people in history have been driven by strong idealism that lacks compassion and belief for human worth as a moral center. I think Hitler was tremendously idealistic, as are many terrorists, despots, and others who try to force their ideals on others without regard for the suffering it causes.)

    I think a balance of compassionate idealism and realism is important -- good ideals give us moral direction, something lofty and meaningful to work toward, while realism allows us to understand how to apply or work towards our ideals in a constructive way. So, yeah, too many ineffective dreamers with their heads in the clouds would be bad for society, but so would too many cynics without ideals at all. One sees potential for change but isn't doing anything about it, and the other resists changing what's broken because they don't believe it can be fixed. Misguided but effective idealists are probably the most dangerous of all.

  5. #25
    The more you know.. geedoenfj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    facts and logic so much more iseful than imagination.
    Utilizing the facts and logic to accomplish the vision is even more useful..
    Sorry I can't see if you're going to the direction where idealists vs the universe, I see idealists, realists, logistics etc all working together not working against each other, if you're trying to push the discussion into that road then you chose the wrong person..
    “You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions.”
    - Naguib Mahfouz



    6w7 > 1w2 > 2w3

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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by lumi View Post
    Being an idealist and being effective aren't mutually exclusive. Not all idealistic people have their heads so deep in the clouds they forget to actually take action to bring about change. The problems are when people form ideals without compassion & regard for human value, blindly pursue their ideals without understanding real-life consequences, spend all their time forming ideals without any action behind it, or imagine reality is much closer to the ideal than it truly is. The latter two aren't useful, and the former two can form dangerous ideals that cause a great deal of suffering in the world. (Some of the most destructive people in history have been driven by strong idealism that lacks compassion and belief for human worth as a moral center. I think Hitler was tremendously idealistic, as are many terrorists, despots, and others who try to force their ideals on others without regard for the suffering it causes.)

    I think a balance of compassionate idealism and realism is important -- good ideals give us moral direction, something lofty and meaningful to work toward, while realism allows us to understand how to apply or work towards our ideals in a constructive way. So, yeah, too many ineffective dreamers with their heads in the clouds would be bad for society, but so would too many cynics without ideals at all. One sees potential for change but isn't doing anything about it, and the other resists changing what's broken because they don't believe it can be fixed. Misguided but effective idealists are probably the most dangerous of all.
    it seems as though idealism comes into play when there are unlimited amounts of resources available. If resources are limited it can be destructive since it doesn't take into consideration what is needed or sacrificed to achieve such means.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    1) If you view it as is and decide not to change it, you are flirting with nihilism.

    2) If you view the world as is and think it can be improved upon in small measures, you are flirting with idealism. One may not need to change the entire world to be an idealist but just unsatisfied with the status quo.
    Idealism though doesn't deal with practical application which is the problem.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Really?

    I'd say the disappearence of legal slavery, indentured labour, bonded labour, serfdom, slave labour conditions, poverty/subsistence wages, dangerous and life threatening working conditions and the shooting down of striking workers are all steps in the right direction.

    Though I've got a reverence for life and interest in law and order.

    Maybe the holy fucking hell of pre-industrial or industrialising capitalism or the days in which there was no check upon theft, violence, murder, rape, torture or anything else like it were the good ould days to you but its not a popular view. I'd say on balance its not even a sane one.
    I think what people like you tend to forget is that all those acievnents you listed cannot be achieved without the invention of technology from capitalism.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    Idealism though doesn't deal with practical application which is the problem.
    Yes, but you could say the same for someone who only thinks logic and facts should be the litmus test for application. Logic and facts are not "ideal" in dealing with issues on a broad spectrum either. It kind of foregoes the human element. Emotions are realistic. People have them and act on them inspite of facts. To ignore this, is idealistic.

    Whether you think things *should be* a certain way and they aren't, shows a sense of idealized thinking.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    Idealism though doesn't deal with practical application which is the problem.
    Would that be metaphysical, social or political idealism? Are you contrasting it with rationalism or materialism?

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