• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Too many idealists

CitizenErased

Clean Slate
Joined
Jan 5, 2016
Messages
552
[What is toxic to society is unrealistic idealism, like passifism for example; it's just not congruent with reality. Neither is opening a country's borders to anyone who wants to walk in without detrimental consequences to that nation's security and economy. Expecting gun-free zones to keep people safe from armed criminals who disregard the law is also an unrealistic ideal.[/QUOTE]

"Unrealistic pacifism" is not congruent with reality, indeed. That's why it's unrealistic. There's no realistic idealism per se, because if we dream of whatever already being the way it is, it's not idealism. Having said that, I understand that it has to be in terms that can be achievable, otherwise it's just science fiction. But I rarely see how science fiction can be harmful. I hate armies, guns, bombs, and if I could, I'd go to live in the middle of the forest, having my own vegetables to eat, surrounded by people who want to live in peace, and that, A) doesn't harm anyone, B) doesn't mean I'm oblivious to the reality others are living, and C) I don't know why every country "should be" like the US. I live in a country that, with its handful of problems, promotes the cultural exchange, where military service is optional, where there are free clinics and hospitals, free education, where we don't need armies except for celebrating the Independence anniversary or such. And just because I understand opinions I don't respect, I'm going to end this paragraph here.

What it's toxic to society is living in fear, is the reality in itself: bombs, wars, women being bought and sold like cattle, organ traffic, corruption, ambition etc. Those who never chose to live in a world like that have the choice to change it or avoid it. And it's harmless.
 

Lark

Active member
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
29,569
making the world we have work is a better world. If you look at all the damage idealism has done in this world.

Really?

I'd say the disappearence of legal slavery, indentured labour, bonded labour, serfdom, slave labour conditions, poverty/subsistence wages, dangerous and life threatening working conditions and the shooting down of striking workers are all steps in the right direction.

Though I've got a reverence for life and interest in law and order.

Maybe the holy fucking hell of pre-industrial or industrialising capitalism or the days in which there was no check upon theft, violence, murder, rape, torture or anything else like it were the good ould days to you but its not a popular view. I'd say on balance its not even a sane one.
 

GIjade

New member
Joined
Dec 19, 2015
Messages
618
MBTI Type
INFJ
1) If you view it as is and decide not to change it, you are flirting with nihilism.
Sometimes there is nothing that can be done to change things. It's not that you've decided not to change it, you just can't. And then there's that Serenity prayer, you know, accept that which you cannot change. Well, I can't change it but I can't accept it either. This is usually how I view most of the idealistic views I have. I am almost a nihilist, although not totally.
 

Flâneuse

don't ask me
Joined
Jan 16, 2014
Messages
947
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Being an idealist and being effective aren't mutually exclusive. Not all idealistic people have their heads so deep in the clouds they forget to actually take action to bring about change. The problems are when people form ideals without compassion & regard for human value, blindly pursue their ideals without understanding real-life consequences, spend all their time forming ideals without any action behind it, or imagine reality is much closer to the ideal than it truly is. The latter two aren't useful, and the former two can form dangerous ideals that cause a great deal of suffering in the world. (Some of the most destructive people in history have been driven by strong idealism that lacks compassion and belief for human worth as a moral center. I think Hitler was tremendously idealistic, as are many terrorists, despots, and others who try to force their ideals on others without regard for the suffering it causes.)

I think a balance of compassionate idealism and realism is important -- good ideals give us moral direction, something lofty and meaningful to work toward, while realism allows us to understand how to apply or work towards our ideals in a constructive way. So, yeah, too many ineffective dreamers with their heads in the clouds would be bad for society, but so would too many cynics without ideals at all. One sees potential for change but isn't doing anything about it, and the other resists changing what's broken because they don't believe it can be fixed. Misguided but effective idealists are probably the most dangerous of all.
 

geedoenfj

The more you know..
Joined
Oct 6, 2015
Messages
3,347
MBTI Type
ENFJ
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
facts and logic so much more iseful than imagination.

Utilizing the facts and logic to accomplish the vision is even more useful..
Sorry I can't see if you're going to the direction where idealists vs the universe, I see idealists, realists, logistics etc all working together not working against each other, if you're trying to push the discussion into that road then you chose the wrong person..
 

jixmixfix

Permabanned
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
4,278
Being an idealist and being effective aren't mutually exclusive. Not all idealistic people have their heads so deep in the clouds they forget to actually take action to bring about change. The problems are when people form ideals without compassion & regard for human value, blindly pursue their ideals without understanding real-life consequences, spend all their time forming ideals without any action behind it, or imagine reality is much closer to the ideal than it truly is. The latter two aren't useful, and the former two can form dangerous ideals that cause a great deal of suffering in the world. (Some of the most destructive people in history have been driven by strong idealism that lacks compassion and belief for human worth as a moral center. I think Hitler was tremendously idealistic, as are many terrorists, despots, and others who try to force their ideals on others without regard for the suffering it causes.)

I think a balance of compassionate idealism and realism is important -- good ideals give us moral direction, something lofty and meaningful to work toward, while realism allows us to understand how to apply or work towards our ideals in a constructive way. So, yeah, too many ineffective dreamers with their heads in the clouds would be bad for society, but so would too many cynics without ideals at all. One sees potential for change but isn't doing anything about it, and the other resists changing what's broken because they don't believe it can be fixed. Misguided but effective idealists are probably the most dangerous of all.

it seems as though idealism comes into play when there are unlimited amounts of resources available. If resources are limited it can be destructive since it doesn't take into consideration what is needed or sacrificed to achieve such means.
 

jixmixfix

Permabanned
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
4,278
1) If you view it as is and decide not to change it, you are flirting with nihilism.

2) If you view the world as is and think it can be improved upon in small measures, you are flirting with idealism. One may not need to change the entire world to be an idealist but just unsatisfied with the status quo.

Idealism though doesn't deal with practical application which is the problem.
 

jixmixfix

Permabanned
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
4,278
Really?

I'd say the disappearence of legal slavery, indentured labour, bonded labour, serfdom, slave labour conditions, poverty/subsistence wages, dangerous and life threatening working conditions and the shooting down of striking workers are all steps in the right direction.

Though I've got a reverence for life and interest in law and order.

Maybe the holy fucking hell of pre-industrial or industrialising capitalism or the days in which there was no check upon theft, violence, murder, rape, torture or anything else like it were the good ould days to you but its not a popular view. I'd say on balance its not even a sane one.

I think what people like you tend to forget is that all those acievnents you listed cannot be achieved without the invention of technology from capitalism.
 

ChocolateMoose123

New member
Joined
Oct 4, 2008
Messages
5,278
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Idealism though doesn't deal with practical application which is the problem.

Yes, but you could say the same for someone who only thinks logic and facts should be the litmus test for application. Logic and facts are not "ideal" in dealing with issues on a broad spectrum either. It kind of foregoes the human element. Emotions are realistic. People have them and act on them inspite of facts. To ignore this, is idealistic.

Whether you think things *should be* a certain way and they aren't, shows a sense of idealized thinking.
 

jixmixfix

Permabanned
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
4,278
Yes, but you could say the same for someone who only thinks logic and facts should be the litmus test for application. Logic and facts are not "ideal" in dealing with issues on a broad spectrum either. It kind of foregoes the human element. Emotions are realistic. People have them and act on them inspite of facts. To ignore this, is idealistic.

Whether you think things *should be* a certain way and they aren't, shows a sense of idealized thinking.

Emotions and logic are different from each other. Logic and facts are not ideal with dealing with issues on broad spectrum? in what way? So if I think that logic and facts are more prominent to a healthier world than wishful thinking and emotions then that is idealistic?
 

Galaxy Gazer

New member
Joined
Dec 27, 2015
Messages
941
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
NFs are OK that's not really what I meant anyway. More along the lines of noticing the amount of people who are very ideologically driven instead of viewing reality for what it is.

Ohhhh so you mean idealist-idealists. I thought you meant, like, visionaries. I agree, then. Reality is harsh and the sooner we all accept that, the better.
 

ChocolateMoose123

New member
Joined
Oct 4, 2008
Messages
5,278
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Emotions and logic are different from each other. Logic and facts are not ideal with dealing with issues on broad spectrum? in what way? So if I think that logic and facts are more prominent to a healthier world than wishful thinking and emotions then that is idealistic?

It isn't more or less healthier than the other in totality. You have logic and fact based decisions. Ok. Just because someone makes decisions this way does not denote success in those endeavors. Why? Because it isn't taking into account a human element - emotion, mercy vs justice, etc. Just because something is factual doesn't mean it should be the sole way to make decisions about life.

So, same with a person who wishes for world peace and says, "If everyone just got along with each other and loved one another this could happen". Ok.

But that view doesn't take into account conflict produces progress just as much as war and you can't have one without another. Both views are short-sighted as not being balanced in reality, IMO.

They fail to take into account a big aspect of human nature. Human nature makes reality.

Really tho, this can go down rabbit holes of philosophy but I hope you see where I'm going with this.
 

jixmixfix

Permabanned
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
4,278
It isn't more or less healthier than the other in totality. You have logic and fact based decisions. Ok. Just because someone makes decisions this way does not denote success in those endeavors. Why? Because it isn't taking into account a human element - emotion, mercy vs justice, etc. Just because something is factual doesn't mean it should be the sole way to make decisions about life.

So, same with a person who wishes for world peace and says, "If everyone just got along with each other and loved one another this could happen". Ok.

But that view doesn't take into account conflict produces progress just as much as war and you can't have one without another. Both views are short-sighted as not being balanced in reality, IMO.

They fail to take into account a big aspect of human nature. Human nature makes reality.

Really tho, this can go down rabbit holes of philosophy but I hope you see where I'm going with this.

I understand that two sides of the coin exist and are there for a reason. I think what makes a society civilized are those whom base their decisions on logic and reason instead of emotions.Politicians fail to base their decisions on facts a lot of time and do so based on an ideological narritive this in itself is a flawed way of solving political problems. Raising a child, making friends and other social interaction seem to be on the winning side of emotions. An overly emotional and idealistic society is regressive
 

Amargith

Hotel California
Joined
Nov 5, 2008
Messages
14,717
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
4dw
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Interesting. I view logic and rationality as tools to navigate my direct environment while using idealism, new ideas and values to address the bigger issues in life as I believe that any (logical) system that is built should be subservient to the people it is meant to serve and strive to improve to approach that ideal.

I'd guess that that is because of my preferences and the skills that flow from that - I have more faith in my ability to generate new ideas and my vision to help people (and how to go about that), than I do in my ability to build rational systems and structures. From that stems that I have a rather dim and distrustful view of how we could become shackled and harmed by logical systems and rationality as I've seen it used too often as a devil's advocate to screw people over; a cover for petty feelings that people didn't know how to handle so took out on others, using 'supposed' rationality and logic as their weapon to get their way.

I guess you perceive it the same way, coming from from the other side - because you prefer logic and rationality and trust that ability, instead. :shrug:

I'd say that coming together and using both tools is probably our best bet. But that does mean we select our partners properly so we can trust them, their ability and their vision to be on the same page as ours when we invest in our society and the future.


Edit: :unsure: Anyone else having 'Divergent' flash backs to the power struggle between Abnegation and Erudite?
 

SpankyMcFly

Level 8 Propaganda Bot
Joined
Nov 19, 2009
Messages
2,349
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
461
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
Are too many idealists instead of realists toxic to society?

As long as a society has abundance (1st worlders) there will be those who have the resource of 'time' to spend on idealism. If you're too busy putting food on the table or moving up the socio/economic ladder you will prioritize your time differently. It's a Maslow thing ;)


2ljgi9c.jpg



e.g. Hurricane Karina, if you lived there when it happened do you think the idealists were idealizing? Hell no they weren't, they were busy finding food/water, shelter, a gun :p

It's also why 3rd world poverty is so intractable. They need socio/economic/political change but they are too busy surviving to care/worry about politics.

That we even have the time to debate, discuss these kinds of matters just goes to show ya :newwink:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs

 

Cellmold

Wake, See, Sing, Dance
Joined
Mar 23, 2012
Messages
6,266
Evidently, human biology says yes. I read somewhere that (among Americans, at least) the percentage of extraverts vs. introverts is something like 48% to 52%. The percentages are roughly equal on the F/T axis and the J/P axis as well. The N/S axis is quite different. Only about 26% of us are Ns. The other 74% are Ss. Something in our genetic makeup says we need more Ss than Ns, and the Ns tend to be head-in-the-clouds idealists, whereas Ss tend to be practical, down-to-earth, and much more concerned with making the world we have work (as opposed to dreaming of a better world). So, I'd say yes. Too many idealists would probably prove toxic to our society if not also to the human race as a whole. Somebody needs to do the world's work. Ns (for the most part) find that work mundane and a waste of our mental energy, but it still needs to be done. We'd all starve to death if the world were full of Ns.

I think the concept of intuition as defined in MBTI is a relatively new phenomenon though. Until quite recently as a species, the majority in the western world didn't have the luxury of mental masturbation or exploring the ideas that came to them.

I should really put more specifics into this but health things distracting me at the moment.
 

miss fortune

not to be trusted
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
20,589
Enneagram
827
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
reminder, dear forum-goers... there is a topic here in this thread... perhaps addressing that would warm the cockles of your heart a bit? I know it would warm mine if you addressed it! ;)
 
Top