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What matters more, intention or consequence?

Coriolis

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Consequence more than intention, but it doesn't completely trump it.

If you really, really, really intend to do something, then there's a strong chance of that thing happening.
So intention is important only because it usually leads to a consequence. Meaning consequences really are more important after all.

So it would be fair to assume for a person performing an action, intention matters, and for a person receiving an action, consequence matters. In a very general sense.
Not at all. When I perform an action and do not see the expected and desired consequence, I consider it a failure on my part and figure out how to correct it. Intentions that come to naught are thus a waste.

Yes. But you can't accomplish very much at all with just a thought.
Exactly. People often use the phrase "it's the thought that counts" to excuse an inappropriate gift. To which I say, if the person really had put some thought into it, they would have found something appropriate.
 

Bush

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So intention is important only because it usually leads to a consequence. Meaning consequences really are more important after all.
Exactly. I wouldn't say that consequences are the end-all, be-all in every circumstance in the world, ever; but they're important both in and of themselves and as a rough measure of intent.

Also, everything else you said in your post.
 

SearchingforPeace

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Intention seems to be a why issue, instead of a what issue.

It was suggested to me on my blog that Fi cares more about what. It appears that FeTi cares more about why and FiTe about what from I have gathered from various sources.

If you understand why someone acts, you can accommodated them and their behavior. It is a question of mercy vs justice.

A man steals bread. What he did is obvious. Strict liability ideas would say throw him in jail. Justice is served.

But the man has 5 starving children. He lost his job and can't find another. His wife is deathly ill. There is intention.

Judges hate sentencing guidelines and strict liability because they like to find that nuance, the meaning in action.

So, I would argue why matters more than what.

Ex.

Man shoots another man, killing him. There is the what.

Man was defending himself and his family from a home invader with a gun.

The why changes everything.

Intentions matter. Even consequences (a dead body) may not matter given the intent.

Cold, strict action, consequence is devoid of meaning.

Now, the dead guy will still be dead, but how we deal with his killer is all about intent.
 

Amargith

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Intention. The why is everything to me. I can forgive a lot of botched consequences if I see growth along the journey of said failures.


And to be perfectly honest, I tend to avoid people who value consequences above all else. Too high maintenance, too demanding and too much risk of disappointing them (and therefore feeling completely guilty) without enough reward to balance out the risk :shrug:

I have enough trouble keeping my own perfectionistic side in check and living by the saying 'Errare humanum eat' without anyone else reinforcing that tendency.
 

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Intention ofc.
 

pixie snax

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Sometimes our truest intentions are unrealistic, so people choose to take the good with the bad, but the moral intention remains the same regardless of the means to that end. It is why someone might experience guilt or uncertainty over what they believe to be the best course of action in a given situation, or not, if they are convinced they are doing everything in their power to align with their good intention. Most of the time when people say they want a specific outcome, they are actually searching for a way to get something else, not the outcome itself. A person who is unaware of all their options--or whose options are limited--might rationalize their actions for this reason. Some people are also more impulsive, and may not think through the aspects of their decision that could result in unintended consequences. On the other hand, the world has people who deliberately sabotage others for personal gain and to protect their egos. I think less people would sympathize with someone like that because they don't relate to the lack of empathy if it's not the norm in their environment and is seen as a threatening behavior.

Another interesting thought--every moral dilemma boils down to the fact that each value has its own subjective weight, which is why we can perceive someone else's views as extreme, even if they stand for something we regard as good (high-priority value). I think morality and the scope of our empathy are conditional at least in part upon our perceived needs and fears (the other factor being our natural empathetic ability), and whether embracing certain values supports those needs being met. For example, our species has a lean towards cooperation as a survival strategy, so we encourage it as "good". A need can also be something intangible, like an abstract feeling which is psychologically beneficial to the individual.
 
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melomania

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Intention. The why is everything to me. I can forgive a lot of botched consequences if I see growth along the journey of said failures.


And to be perfectly honest, I tend to avoid people who value consequences above all else. Too high maintenance, too demanding and too much risk of disappointing them (and therefore feeling completely guilty) without enough reward to balance out the risk :shrug:

I have enough trouble keeping my own perfectionistic side in check and living by the saying 'Errare humanum eat' without anyone else reinforcing that tendency.

Intention is so much more important to me than consequence. I always have to know why! I really don't believe anything is concretely good or evil. I think those are constructs of perception that we use to judge things that are either beneficial or harmful to us and that's going to change based on each person's individual perspective. I honestly don't believe that people are evil. Even when people commit seemingly horrific acts, I am always driven to understand why. I simply can't accept the "some people are just evil" solution. That's much too easy. I have to understand the deeper motivations behind it.
 

prplchknz

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we say when its our own actions it's intention but when it's others it's consequence. i say its a combination, sense i can not see your intentions often at first glance but try to convince myself i can when the consequence of your actions is undesirable i say your intentions were bad unless you can convince me you can't and most of the time that's pretty easy to do. but i say my intentions were good even if the consequence wasn't. so why do i value more my intention than my consequences yet value your consequences more than your intentions? it's not really fair to either of us.

so it's a combination

this thought is brought to you by #coffee :coffeeluv:
 

magpie

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Intention is so much more important to me than consequence. I always have to know why! I really don't believe anything is concretely good or evil. I think those are constructs of perception that we use to judge things that are either beneficial or harmful to us and that's going to change based on each person's individual perspective. I honestly don't believe that people are evil. Even when people commit seemingly horrific acts, I am always driven to understand why. I simply can't accept the "some people are just evil" solution. That's much too easy. I have to understand the deeper motivations behind it.

But if you were beaten by someone, for example, I think it might be hard to argue that it was your perception that made the act harmful. If your perception of being beaten was a good one, would the act still have been harmful? Is there such a thing as an inherently harmful act, or are you basically saying that thinking makes it so?
 

melomania

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The beating example that you used would be physically harmful no matter the intention of the person doing the beating. I'm not saying that a situation like that wouldn't be harmful unless viewed as such. But I think it is too easy to sum everything up as right/wrong or good/evil and, in doing so, we ignore the motivations of others. When I read your example, my first thought was "Why did I get the beating?" because the motivation behind it would change my perception of the situation. If I catch myself judging someone's actions as evil, it is usually because I cannot comprehend why they would do such a thing, but as soon as I gain insight to the motivations behind their actions, I usually become very compassionate, even towards those who society deems as most unlovable.

I seriously could shed a tear for Ed Gein and I would want to give him a big hug if only I knew that his mama made him that way.
 

magpie

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The beating example that you used would be physically harmful no matter the intention of the person doing the beating. I'm not saying that a situation like that wouldn't be harmful unless viewed as such. But I think it is too easy to sum everything up as right/wrong or good/evil and, in doing so, we ignore the motivations of others. When I read your example, my first thought was "Why did I get the beating?" because the motivation behind it would change my perception of the situation. If I catch myself judging someone's actions as evil, it is usually because I cannot comprehend why they would do such a thing, but as soon as I gain insight to the motivations behind their actions, I usually become very compassionate, even towards those who society deems as most unlovable.

I seriously could shed a tear for Ed Gein and I would want to give him a big hug if only I knew that his mama made him that way.

Do you think it's possible to figure out a motivation working backwords from a consequence?
 

melomania

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If your perception of being beaten was a good one, would the act still have been harmful?

On second thought, I'm not sure about this part. That is tricky. I think that if I viewed the beating I got as something good, then maybe it wouldn't be harmful? At least not from my perspective. So it comes back to which perspective we are looking from, which still makes the judgment relative, no?
 

melomania

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Do you think it's possible to figure out a motivation working backwords from a consequence?

Not always, but I think that we should always try to uncover and understand motivations whenever possible. There will definitely be times where we can't figure out why people committed certain acts, but that doesn't mean the motivating factor never existed.
 

magpie

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Not always, but I think that we should always try to uncover and understand motivations whenever possible. There will definitely be times where we can't always figure out why people committed certain acts.

But then how do we figure out whether something was "good" or "bad" if we can't figure out the motivations?
 

melomania

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But then how do we figure out whether something was "good" or "bad" if we can't figure out the motivations?

I'm not sure. Maybe we don't always get to figure that out? Maybe we don't always have to decide that? I'm just saying that I believe motivation is always a factor, whether we can figure out what said motivation is or not.
 

Red Herring

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This is pertinent:

[video]https://www.ted.com/talks/rebecca_saxe_how_brains_make_moral_judgments?langu age=en#[/video]

Sensing the motives and feelings of others is a natural talent for humans. But how do we do it? Here, Rebecca Saxe shares fascinating lab work that uncovers how the brain thinks about other peoples' thoughts — and judges their actions.

Basically, how much you take intention into consideration depends on how active your Right Temporo-Parietal Junction is.



I personally see a lot of parallels between empathy and theory of mind. A complete lack of either one or even both in an older child or adult strongly hints at an underlying pathology, I suspect.
 

magpie

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This is pertinent:

[video]https://www.ted.com/talks/rebecca_saxe_how_brains_make_moral_judgments?langu age=en#[/video]



Basically, how much you take intention into consideration depends on how active your Right Temporo-Parietal Junction is.



I personally see a lot of parallels between empathy and theory of mind. A complete lack of either one or even both in an older child or adult strongly hints at an underlying pathology, I suspect.

Thanks. This was a very interesting video.

I suspect that maybe you're trying to say I have late development, lack empathy, or have a disorder. Or maybe this was a general comment.
 

Such Irony

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Intention matters more. The person with good intentions is more likely to prevent bad consequences overall. The bad consequences are by accident or ignorance. Whereas the person with bad intentions will likely cause more bad consequences in more situations.
 

Red Herring

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Thanks. This was a very interesting video.

I suspect that maybe you're trying to say I have late development, lack empathy, or have a disorder. Or maybe this was a general comment.

Nope, not directed at you, more of a general comment. I do think that empathy and theory of mind go hand in hand. Both are present in any healthy older child or adult, both develop at about the same time and there is a wide variety of intenity among the healthy population (meaning there are perfectly healthy people with little empathy and theory of mind and people who score highly on both but most will be somewhere in between.
 

Lark

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I think some of the terms you've sought to exclude from the discussion are actually useful to be honest, intent is important but can not possibly be given the same weight as consequences, not for an instant.

I'm pretty sure that any rapist, child molester, or other transgressor would outright deny any harm or victim in their criminal acts and largely come up with the rationalisations to support that thinking by extention from their own selfish intentions.

They are either not aware/incapable of awareness or aware and dont care, either the can but have long sense dispensed with caring or they cant as a result of their own individual psychological constitution or character. Which is where I believe the terms you seek to exclude have an indispensable roll to play.
 
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