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The Beauty of Catholicism

S

Sniffles

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Anyways, for those interested(especially LadyJane) here's a wonderful video of a High Latin Mass celebrating the Feast of the Sacred Heart:
[youtube=enWiFcsBqIE]Traditional Latin Mass: Feast of the Sacred Heart[/youtube]

Although I'll warn you, it's an hour long.

For those who can't sit that long, here's a shorter video of a Latin Mass - 10min.
[youtube=rfm5Y5MwZqQ] A Tridentine Mass[/youtube]
 

Totenkindly

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If that happened, I think the flood would've happened much much much earlier and God would've started over again. :tongue:

Then at least we'd know God doesn't have a sense of humor.
 

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Then again, you could just say that Jesus hung out with the sinners and hookers and street raff, not the posh fancy uppercrust crowd, and he was also born in a stable, not a palace... so is the chalice REALLY appropriate as opposed to the beer mug here?

I think the point is that it's showing OUR reverence for HIM, not his reverence for himself... but yeah I see what you mean. Personally I'd be happy with a wooden cup ffs...

IOW, WWJDHOBOO?
(What would jesus drink his own blood out of?)

I actually laughed out loud when I read that and it's a good thing I procrastinated pouring the coffee cos otherwise my keyboard would be covered with it by now. I think I laughed similarly though when, in a SPCK shop in town, I came across for the first time those wrist bands with WWJD on them...

I remember when the shift seemed to happen, it was when AIDS was starting to get really prominent in the 80's.

Figures. Even though you can't catch it from saliva... :rolleyes:

The church I went to was usually once a month. It was funny when an influx of Catholics migrated to the church, because then there was disagreement over how often to have it. The Catholics were used to it weekly.

Yeah most RC churches I know of do it daily, though only the 'hardcore' are there every day, most yeah, it's weekly. My hardcore-ness tends to fluctuate :D
 

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The Beauty of Mary.

[youtube=fbeXnLOv7xg]YouTube - Ave Maria[/youtube]
 
S

Sniffles

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Very beautiful Hmm. Here's another good one:

[youtube=d5p_U8J0iRQ] Gregorian Chant - "Salve Regina"[/youtube]

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy!
Our life, our sweetness, and our hope!

To thee do we cry, poor banished
children of Eve, to thee do we send
up our sighs, mourning and weeping
in this valley, of tears.

Turn, then, most gracious advocate,
thine eyes of mercy toward us; and
after this our exile show unto us the
blessed fruit of thy womb Jesus;
O clement, O loving, O sweet virgin Mary.

Pray for us, O holy Mother of God
That we may be made worthy of the
promises of Christ.
 

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It is very beautiful, these sorts of things... but I'm just very wary of getting too tied up in sentimentalism as it can so easily slide into... and in forgetting that something being beautiful doesn't automatically make it right or true... consider Pamela Anderson :laugh:

I think I reached a stage of my Catholicism where I figured it's vital to keep a critical eye out and not get too sorta 'snug' amidst the glow of the candles and the spine-tingling chants of the monks of Mont St Michel... :/

I spent too much of my time memorizing entire medieval almanacks and thinking I was getting it all because I was able to immerse myself in all this... in fact I was so busy doing that that I was actually missing the real point of it all...
 

Totenkindly

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I actually laughed out loud when I read that and it's a good thing I procrastinated pouring the coffee cos otherwise my keyboard would be covered with it by now. I think I laughed similarly though when, in a SPCK shop in town, I came across for the first time those wrist bands with WWJD on them...

I'm glad you laughed, for it will give me something to recall fondly as I am burning in hell for my numerous sacrileges. :)
 

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I'm glad you laughed, for it will give me something to recall fondly as I am burning in hell for my numerous sacrileges. :)

Eh, we can pass an eternity laughing together as our behinds are roasted and prodded with the forks of little demons :laugh:
 
S

Sniffles

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It is very beautiful, these sorts of things... but I'm just very wary of getting too tied up in sentimentalism as it can so easily slide into... and in forgetting that something being beautiful doesn't automatically make it right or true... consider Pamela Anderson :laugh:

Of course. I commented on this earlier that without a geniune and firm spiritual base, such aesthetics become meaningless. I firmly believe in aesthetics, but am a staunch critic of Aestheticism - especially in regards to religious truth.

I see it this way: if the problem we had in the past was an overconcentration on aesthetics at the expense of greater truth; the grave problem we have today is the near total neglect of aesthetics which has lead to the neglect of the greater truth.

"Beauty will save the world" as Dostoevsky explained.
 

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Yeah Peguy, though I'm not sure where you get that aesthetics is neglected... not sure what Roman Catholicism is like in your part of the world but it's pretty aesthetic here... lol

Actually it's a total myth by the way, that medieval Catholicism concentrated on looks at the expense of substance. In actual fact pretty much every little ritual, every aspect of every ritual, every convention, tradition, even the gestures during a litany or liturgy, they all have behind them reams of theology... the shame comes in when that stuff has become lost due to a received perception, which goes unchallenged, this 'official story' of how it's all meaningless and not the substance... that people have lost the meaning behind it all has made it meaningless when originally it was anything but.

In fact for the illiterate medieval person, it was their way of accessing the substance on a regular basis.

Ever read 'The Stripping of the Altars' by Eamonn Duffy? Fascinating stuff.
 
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Sniffles

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Yeah Peguy, though I'm not sure where you get that aesthetics is neglected... not sure what Roman Catholicism is like in your part of the world but it's pretty aesthetic here... lol

Well this is pretty much how a standard mass in my area looks like.
[youtube=nCXLfz0huD4] Catholic Mass with youth choir[/youtube]
[youtube=Lcs8xvUdgfo] Mass on the feast of Saint Peter and Saint Paul, 2008[/youtube]

I could also post examples of "Clown" or "Polka" masses as well.

So yeah, perhaps you now better understand why Im so hooked on Gregorian chants and everything else.

Actually it's a total myth by the way, that medieval Catholicism concentrated on looks at the expense of substance. In actual fact pretty much every little ritual, every aspect of every ritual, every convention, tradition, even the gestures during a litany or liturgy, they all have behind them reams of theology... the shame comes in when that stuff has become lost due to a received perception, which goes unchallenged, this 'official story' of how it's all meaningless and not the substance...

In fact for the illiterate medieval person, it was their way of accessing the substance on a regular basis.

I was actually referring more to the 19th century and the time preceding Vatican II.
 

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Yeah Peguy, though I'm not sure where you get that aesthetics is neglected... not sure what Roman Catholicism is like in your part of the world but it's pretty aesthetic here... lol

I would say that for a long time in the more conservative elements of US Christianity, real beauty and aesthetics was mistrusted. Liberal elements tended to appreciate art; conservative elements tended to view it irrelevant and impractical unless it was didactic in nature. Art is mysterious and uncontrollable; aesthetics cause emotional reactions that were mistrusted, since the conservative faith was Te, very concretely logical in nature.

Usually heavily artistic influences in the church that were not just vehicles to promote ideology were handled by the liberal side and the pentecostals, etc.... the more mystical branch of the church. Not until the later 90's, when the worship movement REALLY took off and Gen X Christians began to shine, did you really see honest art for the sake of aesthetic pleasure flood through the church and be accepted on a more widespread basis. the Emerging church movement is part of that as well.

at least, that was my experience. As an artist in the church, I felt very stifled and still do to some extent within the more conservative belts of faith.
 
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Sniffles

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I would say that for a long time in the more conservative elements of US Christianity, real beauty and aesthetics was mistrusted. Liberal elements tended to appreciate art; conservative elements tended to view it irrelevant and impractical unless it was didactic in nature. Art is mysterious and uncontrollable; aesthetics cause emotional reactions that were mistrusted, since the conservative faith was Te, very concretely logical in nature.

That's probably the one paradox I find about Protestantism. Even during the Reformation, Luther was more conservative theologically but allowed more freedom in regards to the writing of hymns. By contrast, Thomas Muntzer was more radical in theology, but liturgically relied on German translations of Gregorian chants.
 

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...whilst Anglicanism is happy to draw on the good points of just about everything since the Tractarian movement (Victorian) opened it up as a true via media again after years of puritannical stuff like you describe Jennifer... :)

and sadly, it absorbs some of the bad, too as well as the bad it already had all of its own :(

I guess all churches are human in essence, run by humans so inherently fallible...

Unless you're RC in which case the entire church is spotless :alttongue:
 

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That's probably the one paradox I find about Protestantism. Even during the Reformation, Luther was more conservative theologically but allowed more freedom in regards to the writing of hymns. ...

Yes, he wrote new lyrics to old drinking songs, to make the hymns more accessible -- oh, the horror!

...nless you're RC in which case the entire church is spotless :alttongue:

like a lamb, hon. Like a lamb. ;)
 
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Yes, he wrote new lyrics to old drinking songs, to make the hymns more accessible -- oh, the horror!

I believe that was only true for "Vom Himmel Hoch da komm' ich her", although later on he rewrote the tune to it. That's one of my favorite of his, and here's a good version of it(first it was quotes, not it's youtube videos hehehe):

[youtube=AneIdDFuLP4] Vom Himmel Hoch da komm' ich her[/youtube]
 

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like a lamb, hon. Like a lamb. ;)

Is it not written: "Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed as long as I remain in full communion with Rome" and "go - your faith and your having checked the 'I agree to the above' box under the 700 page catechism, has made you well."?

Or "Take this all of you, and eat it; this is my body which is shed for you and for all - well, hold on Matthew no, you can't have any because you still don't completely agree with Peter over certain issues and he's my vicar on earth dontcha know."

haha... no seriously, I'm just being facetious, I seriously cannot be arsed to get into the debates and apologetics I used to enjoy so much. If it's people who are like innocent children who inherit the kingdom then anything that a child couldn't understand's gotta be extraneous really... the thief on the cross was with Jesus that day in paradise and he'd never so much as heard of the New Testament, let alone the pope.
 

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Is it not written: "Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed as long as I remain in full communion with Rome" and "go - your faith and your having checked the 'I agree to the above' box under the 700 page catechism, has made you well."?

:shock:


If it's people who are like innocent children who inherit the kingdom then anything that a child couldn't understand's gotta be extraneous really... the thief on the cross was with Jesus that day in paradise and he'd never so much as heard of the New Testament, let alone the pope.

In a nutshell, you have described one of the foundations of my current faith.

And it was the same thing.
I used to love apologetics and faith arguments.
Now I just don't even see the point.
Because of just what you said:

God needs to be accessible without special education or minimum IQ.
Otherwise it's not about the heart, it's about what you know.
And then God is no longer accessible to everyone. Certain people will be excluded.

If I'm on a desert island without a copy of the Bible, i should still be able to find, commune with, and love / be loved by God.
 
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Sniffles

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I don't think intellectual discussion is a hinderance to faith per se. The faith is universal, thus applies to all people and all circumstances.

So yes we need our Thomas Aquinas, and we need our old women who pray everyday in church. One isn't necessarily more "Christian" than the other, but rather approaches the faith in the manner most suited to them.

St. Bernedette of Lourdes failed her catechism classes, yet still proved her holiness. But I think it'd be wrong to conclude that catechisms are wrong because certain people achieve holiness without them.

Same thing with aplogetics and other intellectual discourses on the faith. But they should serve the ultimate higher purposes of faith.
 

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I don't think intellectual discussion is a hinderance to faith per se. The faith is universal, thus applies to all people and all circumstances. ...

Same thing with aplogetics and other intellectual discourses on the faith. But they should serve the ultimate higher purposes of faith.

I would never say they were hindrances either.

I am merely approaching this from a minimalist POV, as someone who lived for so long in a culture where people tacitly (or even openly) insisted that certain things had to be done and believed for someone to "really be saved."

What is the basic foundation of salvation?
Not higher level discourse, even if it is useful to some.
It has to be something that is universally accessible.


That's all.
 
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