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Do you agree with me?

Obsidius

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I am an empirist, but I am also fascinated with the world in a way I cannot explain in objective terms. I call understanding this world and growing in compassion spirituality, and I don't need to bow a knee to some random diety to know this.

Well, you don't know it for starters, you've just defined spirituality in a way that I'm not quite sure fits with the official definition (relating to or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things). Anyway, no one said anything about a deity, and my response was meant to the other person who was arguing on behalf of some warped objectivism.
 

Avocado

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Well, you don't know it for starters, you've just defined spirituality in a way that I'm not quite sure fits with the official definition (relating to or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things). Anyway, no one said anything about a deity, and my response was meant to the other person who was arguing on behalf of some warped objectivism.
It's not the official definition, but I struggle to find a better word. I wish I could find just the right term, just to avoid confusion.
 

Sunflower_Moon

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I don't agree with the last two, but I agree with the first three. I don't agree with the last two because I feel that the spirit/soul is eternal (I don't believe in any organized religion though), and we take what we learn in this life (and any others if past lives and reincarnation exists). All of our experiences contribute to spiritual growth, but what's the point of spiritual growth if we were so temporary and the lessons didn't get taken with our soul/spirit after our physical life ended?
 

Avocado

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I don't agree with the last two, but I agree with the first three. I don't agree with the last two because I feel that the spirit/soul is eternal (I don't believe in any organized religion though), and we take what we learn in this life (and any others if past lives and reincarnation exists). All of our experiences contribute to spiritual growth, but what's the point of spiritual growth if we were so temporary and the lessons didn't get taken with our soul/spirit after our physical life ended?

That makes sense emotionally, sure, but I also know things in the real world don't always make sense.
 

Sunflower_Moon

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You're right. . .not everything in the real world doesn't always make sense. But, with something as complex and unknown as what happens to the soul after death and to what extent the afterlife exists (i.e., heaven vs. hell, or just a continued life as a soul without a God, or if there is a higher power but with no religion or dogma attached to it), can't really be stated in a definite way as to whether it's real or not because there's no concrete evidence. That's why I feel that I disagree with numbers four and five, because it borderlines a person's spiritual belief, religion and spirituality, the afterlife (or lack thereof), etc. Either one of us could be correct because it has to be one way or the other. . .so there really can't be a correct answer to the last two because there's no evidence, so they're sort of theoretical.
 

Avocado

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You're right. . .not everything in the real world doesn't always make sense. But, with something as complex and unknown as what happens to the soul after death and to what extent the afterlife exists (i.e., heaven vs. hell, or just a continued life as a soul without a God, or if there is a higher power but with no religion or dogma attached to it), can't really be stated in a definite way as to whether it's real or not because there's no concrete evidence. That's why I feel that I disagree with numbers four and five, because it borderlines a person's spiritual belief, religion and spirituality, the afterlife (or lack thereof), etc. Either one of us could be correct because it has to be one way or the other. . .so there really can't be a correct answer to the last two because there's no evidence, so they're sort of theoretical.
The most damning evidence for me is in people who suffer brain damage. Remove part of somebody's brain and their entire personality changes. Both of my half sisters have been clinically dead after a bar fight with my cousin, only to spontaneously reanimate. Nothing out there.
 

Sunflower_Moon

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I don't think that personality necessarily goes hand-in-hand with the soul though. We're born with a temperament, so part of it is genetic...but the soul itself is more than just flesh. The rest of personality is shaped through our experiences and the environment. If there's a drastic change in either of those, including the brain being injured, then the personality would be impacted. But by thinking someone is different because of an injury, then it sounds as though humans have no souls at all, or that personality and the soul are the same thing. There are people who also sustain brain injuries who keep their basic personality, though maybe some level of cognition or physical ability may be affected. But the soul and personality can't be the same thing because if a person is so different, even opposite, after a brain injury that either means we don't have a soul at all, or one soul was replaced with another...which sounds ridiculous. I think a person is much more than just their injuries though. Each have a soul that is separate from personality, but their physical and/or cognitive disabilities don't allow for it to be fully expressed. To me, it would be like a person that was born deaf getting a cochlear implant and being able to hear to some degree. . .their personality and/or soul most likely wouldn't change, but their experiences and ability to perceive by sound would. . .they'd build onto whatever they already had.

When someone is injured, they have part of what they had taken away instead of added, or perhaps they still have it but are no longer able to express it. For example, my brother-in-law has Down syndrome and autism, and he isn't able to speak. Everyone thought that he knew and perceived far less than he really did. They realized how wrong they (family and doctors) were when it was realized it was his physical inability to communicate that made them reach that assumption. He now communicates with a mixture of a little handheld computer for communication as well as some sign language, and with those, there has been a major improvement in his behavior and development. He still has significant cognitive delays, but he's better than what was once thought. That's why I feel that injury doesn't prove whether or not souls and/or the afterlife exists. Sometimes people may change their belief in the afterlife because of being injured themselves, or because a loved one gets injured. . .my father-in-law became atheist when his son was born because of the problems. Are those changes we see from injuries truly evidence of no afterlife or soul, or is it an emotional response to the unfairness we're perceiving? There are many who stop believing in God when they think the higher power is being unfair or cruel, or, we may mistake the brain, cognitive and physical abilities as a person's soul and/or personality. It's still a situation where either opinion is just an opinion (including mine) because there's nothing that really proves concretely one way or another that the soul and/or afterlife truly exists. We reach our conclusions by what we feel, our opinions, experiences, etc.

I'm not sure if you believe in ghosts, and it may sound crazy, but I do. I never really used to until I spent the night at a friend's house in high school whose house was situated on an old cemetery (they were the caretakers). The whole street or town is haunted, actually. When I stayed at her house, I did see the 2-3 foot dense mist/fog float across the top of the kitchen and disappear. Then, the family had some eccentricities, and one of the things they did was have three small wind chimes in each doorway/walkway of their home that didn't have a door. . even the areas leading up and down the stairs to the second floor. At one point for about a minute, every wind chime in the house began to sway or rock back and forth in unison. There was no air flowing because it was the time of year when the a/c and heater was turned off, and the doors and windows were closed in the house. The wind chimes rocked so suddenly and ended just as suddenly. Strangest thing I've ever experienced. . .and I have no history of hallucinating, no delusional or psychotic disorders, no medication, etc. It was just weird to me, but I left believing that something exists, though I don't believe in the whole heaven vs. hell thing with angels in the clouds or anything like that. I just think that our souls can be like voices, our inner voice, and if our body (brain, voice, etc.) is damaged or injured, it will prevent us from being able to allow our soul to express itself. I'm sorry if I sound like I'm arguing, but that isn't my intention. I'm really sorry to hear about what happened to your half sisters. . .but they did spontaneously reanimate or come to! Something that wasn't supposed to happen, did. They may be different now, but injuries do change us in some way. Unfortunately when the brain is injured, because it's the control center for our cognitive and physical abilities, the impact is more severe and not always able to heal. But consider other injuries that aren't so severe. We may lose a limb, and we can still be the same person in most ways, except maybe we have some type of ptsd...such as soldiers. It seems like humans are the most purpose-driven species on the planet that searches for some type of meaning, and trauma, whether physical or psychological, will change us. . .but that doesn't necessarily change our soul.

I'm sorry for rambling and sounding like I'm forcing my view. I just felt that my view was brushed off and automatically assumed to be untrue because of my personality type. I'm not trying to say I'm definitely correct or to disrespect you though, but I feel that because nothing has been scientifically proven, both of our views are only opinions rather than proof. While my personality type may be assumed to have their head in the clouds too much of the time and be too idealistic, that isn't always true and I'm just afraid that I'm being stereotyped. I do read and support a lot of facts and studies when they're available and have significant evidence (not just one study), but at the same time, yes, I do like to think theoretically, think about ideas, and when there's really no concrete evidence to prove anything, we're only left with theories. The afterlife and the soul and religion are all just unproven theories, if not, then there wouldn't be so many debates about it, wars, and there wouldn't be so many religions. . .because everyone would follow that one true religion that was proven to be the one. I'm sorry if anything I've said offended you. . .and for writing so much! I just think that both opinions are just as valid :)
 
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