Do you agree with me?

[Evee]

Life.

That's absurd.

 

[Stek]

Premises:

1) There are both good and bad times in life, but both extremes are fleeting.
2) There is beauty in the highs and lows of life.
3) Appreciation of the beauty found in life's highs and lows leads to spiritual growth.
4) Existence is temporary.
5) The temporary nature of existence makes the present especially precious.

Discuss.

1 - This is subjective to the observer. Any answer is correct depending on the specific point of view.
2 - This is subjective to the observer. Any answer is correct depending on the specific point of view.
3 - This is subjective to the observer. Any answer is correct depending on the specific point of view.
4 - I think this is accurate.
5 - This is subjective to the observer. Any answer is correct depending on the specific point of view.

Philosophical questions tend to be subjective in nature. This is why they are never clearly answered, and it is why anyone's opinion is just as valid as the next one.

"What is meaning, purpose, ownership, responsibility, pride, honor, beauty, respect, right, wrong, morals etc?"
- It is whatever you want it to be. But if your society disagrees with you, then you're contextually wrong. There is no objective answer to questions about subjective concepts.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

That's absurd.

To be fair, this viewpoint of mine is somewhat influenced by a reading of Camus's The Stranger, and Camus was all about absurdism.

Maybe it's more logical to assume I'm going to get reincarnated as a turtle or end up in a magic sky palace where nobody has to eat any vegetables. But I'm pretty convinced death is final, and moreover, that a belief in the finality of death produces the healthiest attitude towards life. Life is an absurd mess, but it's the only thing that is. I'd argue that something is better than nothing.

Everybody talks about whether or not God is true or not, or whether Christianity is true or not, but nobody talks about death. To me, being an atheist and not thinking about death and what it means is kind of a cop-out. It's hypocritical, IMO, to condemn someone for thinking that Jesus got them a place in heaven when you believe that you're going to get reincarnated as Richard Branson's son or whatever. It's essentially the same thing.

 

[Obsidius]

1) There are both good and bad times in life, but both extremes are fleeting.
I think this is basically true, I was about to disagree because I thought of the many who (to my standards) have just all-around terrible lives, but realised that to them that is the average, and that good and bad are relative. So I guess you're right.
2) There is beauty in the highs and lows of life.
Definitely, but I'm not sure about the lows. This is all very nebulous but I'd have to say that some lows are plain useless, and hold no beauty, eg. Crushing depression due to loss, this holds no beauty in my opinion.
3) Appreciation of the beauty found in life's highs and lows leads to spiritual growth.
I don't know about spiritual growth, because I pay no mind to it, and I also have no idea what you define as "spiritual". However, I think a good point can be made for reflection of these highs and lows leading to intellectual growth though.
4) Existence is temporary.
If we're talking our existence as people, the answer is axiomatically yes, but "existence" itself is too difficult to talk about without specification, I mean, there's entire schools of philosophy that define it differently to the others.
5) The temporary nature of existence makes the present especially precious.
If we're talking about our own personal existence, then yes, especially because it seems to be a near universal rule that value is inversely proportionate to prevalence or the infinite. If we see the Universe as near infinite in capacity and time, it lends to the idea that our existence is but a blink, and is therefore precious.

 

[Obsidius]

1 - This is subjective to the observer. Any answer is correct depending on the specific point of view.
2 - This is subjective to the observer. Any answer is correct depending on the specific point of view.
3 - This is subjective to the observer. Any answer is correct depending on the specific point of view.
4 - I think this is accurate.
5 - This is subjective to the observer. Any answer is correct depending on the specific point of view.

Philosophical questions tend to be subjective in nature. This is why they are never clearly answered, and it is why anyone's opinion is just as valid as the next one.

"What is meaning, purpose, ownership, responsibility, pride, honor, beauty, respect, right, wrong, morals etc?"
- It is whatever you want it to be. But if your society disagrees with you, then you're contextually wrong. There is no objective answer to questions about subjective concepts.

This looks like a complete cop-out. After all, this was based upon your opinion, not what is true for all people; which would be nothing by the way.

However your argument of contextualism is definitely reasonable.

 

[Evee]

To be fair, this viewpoint of mine is somewhat influenced by a reading of Camus's The Stranger, and Camus was all about absurdism.

Maybe it's more logical to assume I'm going to get reincarnated as a turtle or end up in a magic sky palace where nobody has to eat any vegetables. But I'm pretty convinced death is final, and moreover, that a belief in the finality of death produces the healthiest attitude towards life. Life is an absurd mess, but it's the only thing that is. I'd argue that something is better than nothing.

Everybody talks about whether or not God is true or not, or whether Christianity is true or not, but nobody talks about death. To me, being an atheist and not thinking about death and what it means is kind of a cop-out. It's hypocritical, IMO, to condemn someone for thinking that Jesus got them a place in heaven when you believe that you're going to get reincarnated as Richard Branson's son or whatever. It's essentially the same thing.

What if the something we have is a trap? Or.. what if the material world is evil or corrupt? Even being absurd about life is binding.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

What if the something we have is a trap?

Set by whom? If there is no God, how can it be a trap? It's just purposeless. It isn't good or bad. It just is. All that remains to us is what we decide to do with it.

Or.. what if the material world is evil or corrupt? Even being absurd about life is binding.

If the material world is evil, then what is good? If the mind is separate from the body, then why does alcohol work? Why is being bound by something necessarily a bad thing? Where is it written that this world must be all pain and no joy? Where is it written that suffering is a virtue?

 

[Frosty]

In all honesty, it seems to me that religion is just a huge beautiful distraction. No one knows what exactly happens after death, and they look for answers in an attempt to derive some sort of meaning.

If they choose to absorb themselves in a scripture, understand the world through science, or just associate themselves and what could be with the little things that happen around them, it is all towards the same end. It is the meaning that you are able to develop for yourself, in the time that you have to do it, that really is all that you have.

It is a balance between hoping for and thinking about what never may be, and accepting, developing, and appreciating what is. Some are able to be more comfortable on one side of the scale or another, but if the individual demands too much from either side, then they miss some of what the other has to offer, and might end up disappointed.

Personally, I really have no opinion about religion, life or death, or the afterlife. Life is fleeting, and you choose what you take out of it. If that means focusing on the spiritual, fine. If that means not considering the spiritual at all, fine. Death is what death is, but life is what you make it.

So yes, I do try to enjoy every moment. And whether those moments sink me into lows, or lift me into highs, they can be used to reach an inner balance where you gain more control over their absolute effect. Great things can come from bad~look at picasso!, and bad things can come from what feels great~uhh drug overdoses?, I think that it is just a matter of moving and growing with the inspiration and not letting the inspiration move you.

 

[Evee]

Set by whom? If there is no God, how can it be a trap? It's just purposeless. It isn't good or bad. It just is. All that remains to us is what we decide to do with it.

Do you know the myth of Sisyphus? Camus wrote a book about it.

There is no punishment more terrible than purposeless work without hope.

If the material world is evil, then what is good?

"It is good to be a cynic—it is better to be a contented cat — and it is best not to exist at all. Universal suicide is the most logical thing in the world—we reject it only because of our primitive cowardice and childish fear of the dark. If we were sensible we would seek death—the same blissful blank which we enjoyed before we existed." -H. P. Lovecraft

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Do you know the myth of Sisyphus? Camus wrote a book about it.

There is no punishment more terrible than purposeless work without hope.

Punishment by whom? Punishment for what?

"It is good to be a cynic—it is better to be a contented cat — and it is best not to exist at all. Universal suicide is the most logical thing in the world—we reject it only because of our primitive cowardice and childish fear of the dark. If we were sensible we would seek death—the same blissful blank which we enjoyed before we existed." -H. P. Lovecraft

What's logical about seeking death? What are the logical reasons for preferring life over death? Why should nothing be better than something?

If things had played out differently, I might not even be alive at all. Yet here I am. I suspect it doesn't matter in the end whether I regard that fact as a blessing or a curse. Neither is really falsifiable or provable. So, we are left with a choice. I have made mine. What is so great about non-existence that people are so eager to rush towards it? It's just nothing. When it's over, you likely won't feel anything. It will all just stop.

 

[Pionart]

Premises:

1) There are both good and bad times in life, but both extremes are fleeting.
2) There is beauty in the highs and lows of life.
3) Appreciation of the beauty found in life's highs and lows leads to spiritual growth.
4) Existence is temporary.
5) The temporary nature of existence makes the present especially precious.

Discuss.

1. and 4. sort of, because time means things change. However, existence, and everything that can exist, is infinite.

5. I think that the value of existence is contained entirely in the experience itself. It makes no difference what exists outside of that experience, as far as the experience is concerned.

2. and 3. I will answer more personally for these. I find it hard to see the beauty in the pain I have suffered, but if I were to truly see this beauty, then I do believe it would lead to spiritual growth.

Beauty is relative, in my opinion, for it requires just the right stimulus for just the right observer. However, people are mostly the same so the same basic things would contain beauty for them, but you have to see it in the right way to appreciate that beauty. There is debate about whether value is found in the highs, the highs and lows, or in the middle.

I think to see beauty in all of one's experiences would lead to spiritual growth.

I also now have a desire to go read some Nietzsche.

 

[Avocado]

1) There are both good and bad times in life, but both extremes are fleeting.
I think this is basically true, I was about to disagree because I thought of the many who (to my standards) have just all-around terrible lives, but realised that to them that is the average, and that good and bad are relative. So I guess you're right.
2) There is beauty in the highs and lows of life.
Definitely, but I'm not sure about the lows. This is all very nebulous but I'd have to say that some lows are plain useless, and hold no beauty, eg. Crushing depression due to loss, this holds no beauty in my opinion.
3) Appreciation of the beauty found in life's highs and lows leads to spiritual growth.
I don't know about spiritual growth, because I pay no mind to it, and I also have no idea what you define as "spiritual". However, I think a good point can be made for reflection of these highs and lows leading to intellectual growth though.
4) Existence is temporary.
If we're talking our existence as people, the answer is axiomatically yes, but "existence" itself is too difficult to talk about without specification, I mean, there's entire schools of philosophy that define it differently to the others.
5) The temporary nature of existence makes the present especially precious.
If we're talking about our own personal existence, then yes, especially because it seems to be a near universal rule that value is inversely proportionate to prevalence or the infinite. If we see the Universe as near infinite in capacity and time, it lends to the idea that our existence is but a blink, and is therefore precious.

Intellectual and spiritual are one in the same to me. Th

 

[Stek]

This looks like a complete cop-out. After all, this was based upon your opinion, not what is true for all people; which would be nothing by the way.

However your argument of contextualism is definitely reasonable.

Alright, but the premise was actually presented as objective claims, not as personal opinions or thoughts. I think my response fit the premise nicely.

And, as I implied later on, if we are merely looking for subjective opinions, then there is no real point to the discussion as no conclusion is available. My opinion is independent of yours, and yours is independent of mine. Your opinion means something to you, but nothing to me. And vice versa. So what's the point of this if we are not looking for truth?

 

[Obsidius]

Alright, but the premise was actually presented as objective claims, not as personal opinions or thoughts. I think my response fit the premise nicely.

And, as I implied later on, if we are merely looking for subjective opinions, then there is no real point to the discussion as no conclusion is available. My opinion is independent of yours, and yours is independent of mine. Your opinion means something to you, but nothing to me. And vice versa. So what's the point of this if we are not looking for truth?

The title is "Do you agree with me?", which is why I assumed it to be a subjective exploration or survey of people's opinions rather than an attempt at achieving any kind of objectivity. Well, "truth" is a discussion for a different day, for one thing I doubt one could answer or respond to any of these premises in a way that could be labelled "truth" or "objective". Truth is a difficult concept in itself, and simply creating a dichotomy where the subjective means nothing and the objective is truth is a obtuse oversimplification

 

[Avocado]

The title is "Do you agree with me?", which is why I assumed it to be a subjective exploration or survey of people's opinions rather than an attempt at achieving any kind of objectivity. Well, "truth" is a discussion for a different day, for one thing I doubt one could answer or respond to any of these premises in a way that could be labelled "truth" or "objective". Truth is a difficult concept in itself, and simply creating a dichotomy where the subjective means nothing and the objective is truth is a obtuse oversimplification

I am an empirist, but I am also fascinated with the world in a way I cannot explain in objective terms. I call understanding this world and growing in compassion spirituality, and I don't need to bow a knee to some random diety to know this.

 

[Kas]

1,2 Yes
3. No
4,5. Don’t know

About 3. I don’t think that appreciating beauty in life has value itself. It must go with some kind of better understanding of things. Otherwise it doesn’t lead to anything.

 

[Luke O]

Premises:

1) There are both good and bad times in life, but both extremes are fleeting.
2) There is beauty in the highs and lows of life.
3) Appreciation of the beauty found in life's highs and lows leads to spiritual growth.
4) Existence is temporary.
5) The temporary nature of existence makes the present especially precious.

Discuss.

1) Depends on your point of view. Is the human experience so different when born into privilege or poverty?
2) Sometimes, sometimes it is horror either way.
3) It helps to develop a positive outlook on life, so in a way, yes.
4) Define "existence".
5) I can look at this in terms of change. Everything is constantly changing, for better or worse, nothing stays the same. The human body, everything we make, even the toughest stone can be eroded by the wind. Our past is gone, but it is hard for some (including me) to let it go.

 

[Evee]

Punishment by whom? Punishment for what?

Feel free to replace the word 'punishment' with 'fate'.

It's the price of being passionate about life, or of hating death.

Sisyphus is the hero of the absurd.

What's logical about seeking death? What are the logical reasons for preferring life over death? Why should nothing be better than something?

What is so great about non-existence that people are so eager to rush towards it? It's just nothing. When it's over, you likely won't feel anything. It will all just stop.

Because in non-existence there is no wish unfulfilled.

In oblivion there is peace once and for all.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Because in non-existence there is no wish unfulfilled.

In oblivion there is peace once and for all.

I get the feeling that I'm not going to convince you here.

 

[Polaris]

I don't grant the first or the second point. The good times are indeed fleeting, but the bad times take forever, and are ugly, very, very ugly. And I also happen to think that existence is probably permanent, although the jury will be out on that one forever or at least until the end of time.