Is it possible for a demon to do good?

[Lark]

A line from the beginning of Good Omens by Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaimen, what do you think?

 

[Qlip]

This is a theological question, so I guess the answer depends on whatever you believe. A big point that led me away from Christianity is the status of free will. Especially for the o.g. demon, Satan. Jewish theology makes tons of sense, he is an Angel who's purpose is to be adversarial, his actions bad in the service of good. In Christian theology, he's a renegade who has somehow chosen to deny God, he is a creation who is and does bad. The latter theory opens up a bunch of weird and confusing questions about God's omniscience, and omnipotence, even in the domain of his creatures outside of humanity.

 

[Lark]

This is a theological question, so I guess the answer depends on whatever you believe. A big point that led me away from Christianity is the status of free will. Especially for the o.g. demon, Satan. Jewish theology makes tons of sense, he is an Angel who's purpose is to be adversarial, his actions bad in the service of good. In Christian theology, he's a renegade who has somehow chosen to deny God, he is a creation who is and does bad. The latter theory opens up a bunch of weird and confusing questions about God's omniscience, and omnipotence, even in the domain of his creatures outside of humanity.

There are jewish thinkers who suggest that Jesus was one of a small faction of Jews to still be maintaining that there was a devil or Satan as late in the day as he was, he seemed to be sure that Satan wasnt merely a henchman, ie the adversary, but something else, a pretender and usurper but one of the interesting things is that one of the discovered by quickly denied as non-canonical bibles back in the day of the bible hunters has Jesus appear as an apparition to tell the disciples not to worry about Satan anymore as he had been defeated but that there were other shady figures prepared to step up to the plate and mess with humanity once again, its not even the most crazy discovery, the ones about Jesus resurrecting as a giant, spirit and being accompanied by giant animated/living crucifixes are unreal, have to wonder about the impact of the course of events on the minds of the witnesses.

Reading the letters of Paul or acts of apostles apart from the actual Gospels and the rest of the bible can be interesting, there are far more riddles and strangeness than in the actual life and ministry of Jesus, a lot of which I think can be accounted for by the guys trying to figure out why Jesus had yet to return, although you see that in any movement of that sort I think, disciples thought Jesus' return and the world to come would all have its advent in their days, the socialists thought the same about their revolution and eventual communism. It is something which seems to repeat itself or have some kind of archetypical resonance with humanity.

It wasnt meant to be a strict theological discussion though, philosophically its a good question too, or even considered in fable, literary or fantasy senses.

Devils in oriental thinking are cosmic beings but they are responsible for good and bad deeds, they are a little more like djinn or genies though, meddlers and messers with human kind.

 

[Qlip]

Ah, well there's a big difference between a Christian demon and a trickster figure. The archetypical trickster is neither good nor bad, but a representative of those impulses and forces that are specifically amoral and also powerful, nature, the id, the subconscious. Of course there are other creatures in myths between the spectrum of chaos and and evil. I think in a Western culture where order and predictability are highly valued, the trickster is very easily relegated to being a force of evil.

 

[Lark]

Ah, well there's a big difference between a Christian demon and a trickster figure. The archetypical trickster is neither good nor bad, but a representative of those impulses and forces that are specifically amoral and also powerful, nature, the id, the subconscious. Of course there are other creatures in myths between the spectrum of chaos and and evil. I think in a Western culture where order and predictability are highly valued, the trickster is very easily relegated to being a force of evil.

I dont really see the tricksters as evil, I think humanity is more represenative of the tricksters than angels or demons.

The thing is that I think angels are capable of what could be construed in human terms as evil in the relentless pursuit of good or divine mandate, the adversary role makes sense in this role, or the angel of death in the Moses tale or others like it, even pop culture, like the Raiders of the Lost Arc story but demons are conversely capable of the opposite, something which could appear good in human terms but serve another wicked purpose when you see the ultimate results.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

However you want to go about defining demon, I'm going to say yes.* I don't think things like good and evil are intrinsic to a being, nor do I think they are rooted in intention or by the nature of an act. I believe in good consequences, and I imagine that anything has some capacity to make something good happen. We may well be better off for the existence of something that appears horrible. A time and a place for everything.

*The one exception being that you define a demon as a thing that cannot be a catalyst for good consequences.

 

[indra]

Yes.

I like characters that are morbidly capable who fight for "good", like Guts in Berserk or Master Chief in Halo.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Ah, well there's a big difference between a Christian demon and a trickster figure. The archetypical trickster is neither good nor bad, but a representative of those impulses and forces that are specifically amoral and also powerful, nature, the id, the subconscious. Of course there are other creatures in myths between the spectrum of chaos and and evil. I think in a Western culture where order and predictability are highly valued, the trickster is very easily relegated to being a force of evil.

This interpretation of the trickster is something I've taken issue with.

In a lot of Native American mythologies, the trickster is a Coyote. The Coyote is responsible for stealing the gift of fire and bringing it to humans. How is that bad?

Edit: Please stop stalking me INTPc members. Thanks. You've made your stance clear. It's evident what kind of forum you want.

 

[Kullervo]

Short answer: yes.

A demon's free will entirely depends on the literary world it inhabits, though. In a traditional Abrahamic story, the answer is no as they are cursed, intrinsically evil beings. However there is no reason for you to write a demon in this way if the context is different (a few examples have been floated already).

 

[LonestarCowgirl]

A line from the beginning of Good Omens by Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaimen, what do you think?

It's impossible according to God's standards in the Bible; specifically, in the New Testament where good is a product of walking in the holy spirit...

The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. (Galatians 5:22-23)

According to the Bible, good comes from God. From what I can tell, it's fairly easy to tell when an evil spirit/demon is influencing a person:

And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. (1 John 4:16)

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out [the spirit of] fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. (1 John 4:18)

 

[Cellmold]

One or the main themes of Good Omens is how Crowley and Aziraphale constantly bicker about their own natures and their lack of free will when compared to humans.

Yet throughout the story they often prove they can go against their own supposedly defined natures. Aziraphale isn't nearly as holy as he would like and Crowley isn't so evil as he pretends. All their minor deeds of alignment mean nothing before the fact that they both tried to stop the end of the world and the Antichrist. They both enjoyed and loved the world and went against their assumed roles in pursuit of this objective.

The ineffability of God however, remained ineffable. But heaven and hell both want the same outcome and war.

So of course a demon can do a ' good' thing, at least in a work of fiction where demons exist and with both itself and the bible I measure all fiction equally in its fictionability, except good omens is a better read. Without getting into the bigger discussion behind this one on the relative nature of good and bad.

 

[swordpath]

Demons? Are we talking real life right now or about some novel or video game?

 

[johnnyyukon]

In the 17th century grimoire, The Lesser Key of Solomon, there are 72 demons and instructions to summon them.

They are not all evil and most can aid the conjurer. But you must show respect and also contain them as they are tricksters and will not do good without proper protocol and casting containment techniques, often drawing a triangle around their sigils.

One example, and also a personal favorite:

Naberius

The demon Naberius was first mentioned by Johann Weyer in 1583. He is supposedly the most valiant Marquis of Hell, and has nineteen legions of demons under his command. He makes men cunning in all arts, but especially in rhetoric, speaking with a hoarse voice. He also restores lost dignities and honors, although to Johann Weyer he procures the loss of them.

Naberius appears as a three-headed dog or a raven. He has a raucous voice but presents himself as eloquent and amiable. He teaches the art of gracious living. He is depicted as a crow or a black crane.

Concerning his name, it is unclear if there is an association with the Greek Cerberus. It is said that in 1583, Johann Weyer considers both of them to be the same demon. He claimed:
"Naberius [Naberus], alias Cerberus, is a valiant marquesse, shewing himselfe in the forme of a crowe, when he speaketh with a hoarse voice: he maketh a man amiable and cunning in all arts, and speciallie in rhetorike, he procureth the losse of prelacies and dignities: nineteene legions heare (and obeie) him."

On the other hand, Demons like Belial ain't nuthin' to fuck wit:

In the Goetia, Belial appears as the sixty-eighth Goetic demon. He is attributed with the rank of king among the demons, and he is said to have been created second only after Lucifer. When summoned, he grants offices and other distinctions to his supplicants, and he also brings favor to the magician from both friends and foes. He is said to speak with a comely voice and to appear in the form of not one, but two beautiful angels standing in a chariot of fire. He also appears in Dr. Rudd's Treatise on Angel Magic. In a traditional hierarchy by demonologist Charles Berbiguier, Belial is listed as Hell's ambassador to Turkey. Belial also enjoyed widespread popularity in fifteenth-century Europe through a widely circulated morality tale recorded in the Buche de Belial by Jacobus de Teramos. This depicts Belial as an active tempter of humanity, and the tradition of the Buche de Belial may have helped to inspire the Faust legend. In Mathers' translation of the Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage, Belial is identified as one of the four principal spirits overseeing all the others. In this, he is ranked alongside Satan, Leviathan, and Lucifer.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

In the 17th century grimoire, The Lesser Key of Solomon, there are 72 demons and instructions to summon them.

Isn't there also a demon associated with beards in that thing? I came across some occult book at a yard sale, and encountered a reference to a demon of beards. He was also given some kind of feudal title, which made me think that it shares the same source as the information you mentioned.

Anyway, I just find it amusing that facial hair apparently has a patron demon.

 

[johnnyyukon]

Isn't there also a demon associated with beards in that thing? I came across some occult book at a yard sale, and encountered a reference to a demon of beards. He was also given some kind of feudal title, which made me think that it shares the same source as the information you mentioned.

Anyway, I just find it amusing that facial hair apparently has a patron demon.

Ha, well I know if I shave my beard, I lose all demonic powers so that shit stays on.




But here ya go:



Fureas (Furcas)
FALLEN ANGEL and 50th of the 72 SPIRITS OF SOLOMON. Fureas is a knight who commands 20 LEGIONS of DEMONS. He appears as a cruel man with a long beard and hairy head, riding a pale horse and carrying a sharp weapon. He teaches rhetoric, philosophy, logic, astronomy, chiromancy (divination of the hands), and pyromancy (divination with fire).

This may be the one you found, as his name literally means "hairy" in Sumerian(I think that's the language, but might be something more ancient):





Lahmu
Benevolent Assyrian god who protects against evil DEMONS. Lahmu means "hairy," a description of the god's long hair and beard. Statues of Lahmu were placed in house and building foundations to ward off evil.

 

[Great Architect]

It's impossible according to God's standards in the Bible; specifically, in the New Testament where good is a product of walking in the holy spirit...

The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. (Galatians 5:22-23)

According to the Bible, good comes from God. From what I can tell, it's fairly easy to tell when an evil spirit/demon is influencing a person:

And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. (1 John 4:16)

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out [the spirit of] fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. (1 John 4:18)

It's a bit more complicated than that,"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things" (Isa 45:7 KJV)

"The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil" (Prov 16:4 KJV)

"Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" (Amos 3:6 KJV).

In the old testament and prophets, God does a lot of unique things. Mind you, I don't believe these are literal events, I see it all as symbolic, for something more internal, to me the bible and stuff, are psychology books of their time. thats just my opinion.

anyways in answer to the question, I don't know. It depends on how one defines Good and how they see a demon? No one is good, but we all seek to do according to our concept of good, which figures its way by influence which comes to us from those outside, what we are educated with... that then becomes uniquely mixed with our own thinking and experiences. I can't see I believe in morality, only as an ideal. So as a result, a person is both bad and good, demon and angel, wolf and sheep. What we want to be, it is difficult to be, often we want to be good, but we fail short. Are behaviorism is predictable, given the stimulus, and we seem to experience the same type of stimulus, same type of associations daily. So for a human it is even difficult to be good, in the gospel, Jesus suggests that not even he was, only God was. Plato, through Socrates wrote about The Good, and the ascent to it, was not something already man in us, but something that takes layers of working through to in order to reach, as an Idea, much less and ideal. The Good, symbolized in the sun, an objective source of Light and heat, which shines on everything, despite its nature or formation. So can a demon be good? Well the devil is good, the Antagonist is what moves the progression of the protagonist, to manifest fully all the qualities that is potential in within. The hero is developed by the villain, without the villain, there would be no ultimate good, there could be no growth. The antagonist is a force of resistance and it is between the compelling force and the resistance force, that a new quality can be build. So I guess, a demon can't be good, for it has to be what it is, but its existence brings about the greater Good. Greater good taken differently, as than ordinary good, which is the opposite of bad. This is consistent with Judaism and the gospel honestly... although likewise consistent with the yin yang, perhaps even zen... i dunno.

This reminds me of an old Gnostic piece of literature, I believe the Phillip Gospel,
Light and Darkness, life and death, right and left, are brothers of one another. They are inseparable. Because of this neither are the good good, nor evil evil, nor is life life, nor death death

 

[Frosty]

Well didnt like Satan fall from heaven or something? If he fell I do not see why a demon could not ascend.

I'm not very religious though, but it seems to me like the biblical God castigates people to hell because the majority of their actions are bad, or one of their sins in unforgivable, so I suppose that does not necessarily mean that everything they did was always bad, just that the badness overshadows in Gods eyes.

It is more of a ratio I guess.

 

[Zangetshumody]

In my understanding of the Christian faith, the question presumes an ungodly frame of mind.

Can a demon do good;- well, relative to what? The question only makes sense relative to a world-view.

Subjectively with the Holy Spirit, there is no good and evil, when you are discerning what to do, its simply required to see a true account of what is happening;- judging events as good or evil condemns yourself to be a mere affect of past actions (and part of the World's action as your judgement of the world condemns yourself to it's own determinism (*cause and effect)).

If you act freely, your ability to reference what is happening is a resource available to you in the present;- knowledge is a tool that makes you more effective in the present;- whereas moral knowledge means you are condemned to the narrative that you are only a [spiritually] dead part of. The Holy Ghost is an amoral force;- the Holy Spirit is the mental energy that serves the context the Holy Ghost provides when the 'Ghost' of truth is used to judge/measure[to clearly see] the entire field of truth your mind is being freely given [of God]. The way of the Ghost and the spirit serving in truth together overcomes the world (overcomes all external locus of authority);- because the mind bears record of proper discerning.

 

[tinker683]

I have no doubt they can perform acts of kindness and/or "goodness". Even Pol Pot was kind to certain people I'm sure.

But are they doing these acts of goodness for goodness sake or do they have some other ulterior motive? That's the better question for me

 

[Pionart]

This is an interesting question, because it involves understanding goodness, understanding what comprises a being, and how one is related to the other.

The idea of a static being is a strange one in the first place, as all we know about are temporary lifeforms that can change over their life, and whose states of mind change by the second. So from this view, it seems that many things are possible, just as many things can be programmed into a computer. But, are there beings that have more well defined natures, and who do not change their ways over time?

Goodness, we see on many levels. Something is good, if it makes things better. What counts as 'better' and what counts as 'things' though? And where do we draw the line, and how does it relate to knowledge? If one accidentally brings about a good outcome, is it good? What if one intends good as best as they know how, but fails? Perhaps, perhaps, goodness depends on free will, and freedom is the freedom to do good or to stray from it, and it is simply like moving 'up', when one could choose to move downwards or to the side, as if the sole purpose of life was to move ever higher.

So, a demon is a kind of being very different from a human, and presumably exists outside of this universe and so may well have a static nature. If they have a static nature in our universe, can they also have free will, or are the two incompatible? I am unsure. However, it seems to me that the status of demon refers to one's position on the scale of moral height. They are very low down because, much of the time they have moved downwards. Could they move upwards? I think so. But if we cannot observe their movement, then it suffices to say that moving to be with a demon involves moving downwards.

Possible conclusion? A demon does nothing, rather a person uses the power of a demon to do something, and because their power is of the lower form, it necessarily sends the person lower down so is necessarily evil.