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Antitheism

TheLastMohican

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Again, absence of evidence is not evidence against. You can't make an argument from silence here.

At best, the truth remains ambiguous and has to be left "open," not closed.

Things are never really "closed," but absence of evidence is a valid reason for a hypothesis to be ignored. There are many unfalsifiable ideas, but disbelief can be assumed in the absence of any reason to believe.

As far as your specific question about the Cyclic Model, no, of course I wouldn't reject it based solely on an emotional appeal. But neither could I accept it on one either, without evidence. I mentally "tag" theories and beliefs with a "probability" percentage, rather than just accepting one or denying one wholesale. As I learn more, the percentage changes. I probably will never tag anything as 0% or 100% in my life.

Same here. I wasn't saying that you must accept the Cyclic model if you do not reject it. My point was that the scientific evidence and mathematical predictions are the proper methods of finding the answer, and it is absurd to ignore those methods and reach a hasty conclusion on emotion, which is wholly irrelevant to the reality of the universe. It is or it is not. Many things are hopelessly subjective and lack central definition, but hypotheses like the existence of God are either true or false, and emotional appeal of the idea cannot be counted on to have any effect on the reality.
 

SillySapienne

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If a god were to exist, and I had the chance to meet it, I'd tell it, "great job with creating the whole universe and all, honestly, superb", and then I would slap it across its blob-god amorphous face and say, "that is for all the fucked up shit, immeasurable suffering and perverse 'justice' you have mercilessly effected upon innocent human beings both past, present and future."

Regarding the human realm, if a god were to actually exist, it'd be a big fucking sociopathic asshole.
 

Virtual ghost

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If a god were to exist, and I had the chance to meet it, I'd tell it, "great job with creating the whole universe and all, honestly, superb", and then I would slap it across its blob-god amorphous face and say, "that is for all the fucked up shit, immeasurable suffering and perverse 'justice' you have mercilessly effected upon innocent human beings both past, present and future."

Regarding the human realm, if a god were to actually exist, it'd be a big fucking sociopathic asshole.

What gives you the right to judge god ? Just curious.
 

Night

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If you were to meet the god(s) ostensibly responsible for all creation, would you, after slapping him, offer thanks for all the positive things our world has to offer?

A creator entity would not necessarily symbolize good or bad, as each is but a quagmire of perspective.

Balance, harmony, consistency - these instruments are the true moral baselines for continuity of creation.
 

sassafrassquatch

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Why should we be grateful to a god for anything? Presumably god could have created us as gods equal to himself. But we're small, weak and stupid and that's just the way he wants us.
 

SillySapienne

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If you were to meet the god(s) ostensibly responsible for all creation, would you, after slapping him, offer thanks for all the positive things our world has to offer?

A creator entity would not necessarily symbolize good or bad, as each is but a quagmire of perspective.

Balance, harmony, consistency - these instruments are the true moral baselines for continuity of creation.
Listen, the universe is beautiful, intricate, complex and amazing, as is all of biological life.

However, for all the five year olds who have been brutally raped by their fathers, for all the people who have been tortured, for all the children, men and women who have been victims of horrific murders. For all the children and women who have been victims of parental and spousal abuse, ugh, I can go on with this list, but the point is this, for these people, for these travesties, I'd say with supreme confidence that GOD IS A FUCKING ASSHOLE!!!!

But there is no god, there is only nature, neutral in its intent, and infinite in its measure.

Oh, and I am a taoist, fwiw.
 

Night

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My statement wasn't necessarily predicated on a belief that a creator entity is "good" or "bad" - your initial point stated you wanted to "slap" him, I offered a converse to your statement as an illustration of balance...

Beauty is a question of subjective value.

To my earlier point, "good" and "bad" are perceptual singularities that have less to do with biology than endemic culture. We then cultivate these prejudices into psychological bylaws that dictate our everyday behavior.
 

SillySapienne

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I don't see the "badness" of a five year old getting raped and bludgeoned to death as being a subjective, or cultural value judgment.
 

Night

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That isn't what I said, CC.

I hesitate to explain my counterpoint....
 

Night

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Biological Determinism is the "moral" code by which we unavoidably abide.

Human culture produces expressions of psychological value intended to bolster the probability that our genetic code successfully propagates.

As ideals, compelling though they are certainly are to us, these systems of value are learned social instinct.
 

Virtual ghost

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Listen, the universe is beautiful, intricate, complex and amazing, as is all of biological life.

However, for all the five year olds who have been brutally raped by their fathers, for all the people who have been tortured, for all the children, men and women who have been victims of horrific murders. For all the children and women who have been victims of parental and spousal abuse, ugh, I can go on with this list, but the point is this, for these people, for these travesties, I'd say with supreme confidence that GOD IS A FUCKING ASSHOLE!!!!

Sorry but argument does not stands. Because all of this was in just one moment in their lives on earth. Also god give them life and not just that he/she/it give them eternal life so if you sum all the suffering and divide that with eternal life you will see that in the end he/she/it caused no suffering if you take a look at the big picture.
And those who are causing suffering will suffer because they did not obey the rules that were declared long ago. Also there is no point in punishing people in this world because this way you can assess them much better this way so the less bad guys will enter the heaven.
Sorry but I don't see why god is a monster.
 

Little Linguist

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No offense to anyone, really, but I think you all have a very...how shall I explain this in a meaningful way...tangible notion of "god."

God is intangible - as I explained in an earlier post. And since god is a collective power and not an external power, he cannot "change" anything unless the change comes from the constituents within. :yes:
 
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Night

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No offense to anyone, really, but I think you all have a very...how shall I explain this in a meaningful way...tangible notion of "god."

God is intangible - as I explained in an earlier post. And since god is a collective power and not an external power, he cannot "change" anything unless the change comes from the constituents within. :yes:


What makes you think I believe in God?

You second paragraph is strange. Please explain how/why you think you know the absolute physical characteristics of "God"?

...
 

TheLastMohican

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If a god were to exist, and I had the chance to meet it, I'd tell it, "great job with creating the whole universe and all, honestly, superb", and then I would slap it across its blob-god amorphous face and say, "that is for all the fucked up shit, immeasurable suffering and perverse 'justice' you have mercilessly effected upon innocent human beings both past, present and future."

Okay, you tell him that. :D

Regarding the human realm, if a god were to actually exist, it'd be a big fucking sociopathic asshole.

Two questions:

Do you mean to hold a deity responsible for the decisions of the free entities he creates?

Given the choice of the world as it is or no world at all, which do you think it would be better for a deity to oversee?

Why should we be grateful to a god for anything? Presumably god could have created us as gods equal to himself. But we're small, weak and stupid and that's just the way he wants us.

Whoa there...how would God create other gods equal to Him? How then could He be God? His definition would seem to make that a difficult paradox.
 

Ivy

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No offense to anyone, really, but I think you all have a very...how shall I explain this in a meaningful way...tangible notion of "god."

God is intangible - as I explained in an earlier post. And since god is a collective power and not an external power, he cannot "change" anything unless the change comes from the constituents within. :yes:

Wow! You've solved the foremost metaphysical problem that has been troubling mankind since we started building shelters for ourselves! That is truly awesome. Thanks for sharing it with us. ;)
 

sassafrassquatch

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Do you mean to hold a deity responsible for the decisions of the free entities he creates?

I would. Just as an automaker is held responsible for producing a car that bursts into flames when rear ended, God should be held responsible for creating beings capable of suffering. He is responsible for all rape and murder because we are created rapable and killable.

Let me guess, suffering isn't a bug, it's a feature. :rolli:

Whoa there...how would God create other gods equal to Him? How then could He be God? His definition would seem to make that a difficult paradox.

Depends on whether you define the word "God" as a kind of being or a position of authority.
 

Virtual ghost

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God is intangible - as I explained in an earlier post. And since god is a collective power and not an external power, he cannot "change" anything unless the change comes from the constituents within. :yes:

The only way that things make any sense is that god is an external power.

If it is internal that would mean that he/she/it could be destroyed with the rest of us in Nuclear holocaust and that would be ridiculous.
 
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