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Antitheism

TheLastMohican

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There was a time when declaring yourself an atheist raised eyebrows (and often fists). No more. Plain old atheism is for wimps; if you want to shake things up these days, you need a good dose of antitheism.

That's not to say that all antitheists are nihilistic windbags who apply the label to themselves solely for attention. Those who could be thus described give the group a bad name, and perhaps the effect is greater upon antitheists than in other groups such as Tibetan monks. Actually, I put forth the idea that most antitheists are cheery idealists at heart, since most of them believe that God would be evil while also being relieved by their belief that He does not exist. The ultimate pessimist would be an antitheistic theist: that is, he would believe that God is evil, and be distraught by his simultaneous belief that this evil God does exist. If you subscribe to antitheism (which theists can do, since it is a subjective opinion about God's character rather than a belief based on evidence or lack thereof), then you would be happiest if you were also an atheist. Hitchens must be wiping his brow. That was a close one.

Thoughts?
 

Colors

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Isn't anti-theism against people's belief in god(s), not the god(s) itself?
 

TheLastMohican

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Isn't anti-theism against people's belief in god(s), not the god(s) itself?

It would seem so according to the etymology, and the definitions vary. Some say antitheism is simply "militant atheism." I choose the definition concerning God's nature because I think there should be a word for it. It's an important aspect of belief. I am tired of people assuming that atheists are god-haters and that theists believe because they are emotionally needy. Belief in God's existence is one thing; belief in his goodness is another.
 

gokartride

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Not sure if this ties in, but much has been written about knowing God by unknowing God. In other words, our assumptions (which seem super-abundant days) are what betray us....the actual reality is much, much different. Letting go of religious assumptions can be like death...our whole world can get turned upside-down. In this case a little anti-theism (in the sense of illusion) might do us all a little good....many of us need to move past the "old man in the beard" image.
 

murkrow

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I thought anti-theists were those who opposed theism and sought to break down the beliefs of theists.
 

TheLastMohican

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Not sure if this ties in, but much has been written about knowing God by unknowing God. In other words, our assumptions (which seem super-abundant days) are what betray us....the actual reality is much, much different. Letting go of religious assumptions can be like death...our whole world can get turned upside-down. In this case a little anti-theism (in the sense of illusion) might do us all a little good....many of us need to move past the "old man in the beard" image.

As in the possibility that God is evil and Satan is good?

I thought anti-theists were those who opposed theism and sought to break down the beliefs of theists.

By some definitions, yes. It can also mean the belief that God's existence would be a bad thing, however. Atheists also oppose the beliefs of theists; it's just that some (most?) do not spend much of their time trying to convince theists.
 

gokartride

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As in the possibility that God is evil and Satan is good?
The names emerge from concepts..."God" is the name (there are others) for a life force that is essentially benevolent and beautiful. "Satan" conceptually is a perversion of that based on pride and deception. One system of operation works...one doesn't, generating dysfunction/chaos. One can call them different names, but the basic sense of these two remain and are found in many cultural systems. The "God" concept...when understood properly...should connect us to love, caring/nurturing, truth, purity, forgiveness, respect for others, etc..
 

Virtual ghost

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Hi TLM.

For me antitheist is the person which lives life like a militant atheist. And in the case that Bible turns out to be the truth. That person would be against good and evil side.
That is because this person dreams about destruction of everything that has something to do with religion.

In the group agnosticism , atheism ...... antitheism is the most radical option.
 

TheLastMohican

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Okay, so what I had in mind is closer to maltheism, or dystheism if you are theist.

The names emerge from concepts..."God" is the name (there are others) for a life force that is essentially benevolent and beautiful. "Satan" conceptually is a perversion of that based on pride and deception. One system of operation works...one doesn't, generating dysfunction/chaos. One can call them different names, but the basic sense of these two remain and are found in many cultural systems. The "God" concept...when understood properly...should connect us to love, caring/nurturing, truth, purity, forgiveness, respect for others, etc..

Suppose those concepts are embodied by opposing spirits. How can you know which is which, especially if one of them is supposed to be more powerful than the other?

In the group agnosticism , atheism ...... antitheism is the most radical option.

The harshest definition of antitheism is no more radical than certain varieties of theism.
 

Ivy

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Me worship you long time?

I think a lot of people who are against belief, rather than being blowhards (though there are certainly plenty of those on all fronts of the theism/atheism/antitheism spectrum), are just people who have been affected negatively by dogma. I know from experience that it can leave a pretty awful taste in your mouth.
 

TheLastMohican

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I think a lot of people who are against belief, rather than being blowhards (though there are certainly plenty of those on all fronts of the theism/atheism/antitheism spectrum), are just people who have been affected negatively by dogma. I know from experience that it can leave a pretty awful taste in your mouth.

Meaning they do not believe because of an emotional distaste for religious affiliation rather than an observed lack of evidence compelling them in either direction?
I don't think much of that basis. If you believe or disbelieve because you think there is sufficient or insufficient evidence for the belief in question, so be it. Please do not choose a "belief" (which in such cases is really just a feeling of like or dislike) based on your emotional connections to either side. It's not a valid method for deciding where you stand.
 

millerm277

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Hmm...I don't believe god exists, and I don't think he/she/it would be a positive force if it did exist. However, I don't care what others think as long as it doesn't cause them to try to limit my rights based on their religous beliefs. Would I qualify as an anti-theist or no?
 

TheLastMohican

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Hmm...I don't believe god exists, and I don't think he/she/it would be a positive force if it did exist. However, I don't care what others think as long as it doesn't cause them to try to limit my rights based on their religous beliefs. Would I qualify as an anti-theist or no?

Sassafrassquatch provided a link in post #7 that clears up some of the definitions. Apparently antitheist is often misused, and the appropriate term for someone like yourself is maltheist.
 

gokartride

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From what I can tell many people who have trouble with religion reject it without ever even understanding it on an more advanced, adult level...they are trapped in second grade thinking. I can totally see where they are coming from, given the situation.

Otherwise, I believe the pendulum has swung these days towards a highly cynical outlook which, despite big philosophical terms and requests for scientific "proof", is still at the second grade level and looks pretty rediculous.

Of course, a lot of the mass-consumption religion out there looks pretty rediculous, too.
 

Totenkindly

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Meaning they do not believe because of an emotional distaste for religious affiliation rather than an observed lack of evidence compelling them in either direction?
I don't think much of that basis. If you believe or disbelieve because you think there is sufficient or insufficient evidence for the belief in question, so be it. Please do not choose a "belief" (which in such cases is really just a feeling of like or dislike) based on your emotional connections to either side. It's not a valid method for deciding where you stand.

I don't think your response is very nuanced.

While evidence is not completely arbitrary, religious belief in general is more about how one prioritizes data and thus has a large subjective component.

And frankly, if a person values relational matters rather than abstracted philosophy or empirical science, and a religion claims to speak on relational matters but does lots of relational/emotional damage to people when the beliefs are practiced, then that's going to be very effective evidence to that person that the religion in question has serious flaws... if it's even 'true' at all.

Because its relational value (or "truth") is defunct.

You can't just claim an emotional response to past treatment has no value in determining what might be true in an ambiguous matter like religion, it's operating as a valid data stream for the person in question, correct?
 

Lateralus

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I don't think your response is very nuanced.

While evidence is not completely arbitrary, religious belief in general is more about how one prioritizes data and thus has a large subjective component.

And frankly, if a person values relational matters rather than abstracted philosophy or empirical science, and a religion claims to speak on relational matters but does lots of relational/emotional damage to people when the beliefs are practiced, then that's going to be very effective evidence to that person that the religion in question has serious flaws... if it's even 'true' at all.

Because its relational value (or "truth") is defunct.

You can't just claim an emotional response to past treatment has no value in determining what might be true in an ambiguous matter like religion, it's operating as a valid data stream for the person in question, correct?
I was considering responding to that post, as well. You expressed my thoughts far better than I could have.
 

TheLastMohican

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And frankly, if a person values relational matters rather than abstracted philosophy or empirical science, and a religion claims to speak on relational matters but does lots of relational/emotional damage to people when the beliefs are practiced, then that's going to be very effective evidence to that person that the religion in question has serious flaws... if it's even 'true' at all.

Because its relational value (or "truth") is defunct.

In that case the evidence and the emotional reaction could be combined. That seems just a side note, however, considering that such religious beliefs would not have supportive evidence to begin with. It's just an extra reason to avoid it, while you already have the reason not to believe in it. If a religion presents no evidence for its validity, there needn't be any further consideration of it.

You can't just claim an emotional response to past treatment has no value in determining what might be true in an ambiguous matter like religion, it's operating as a valid data stream for the person in question, correct?

It could seem valid to an individual, and, as you mentioned above, it could be its own form of evidence when the religion itself is only dealing in emotional terms. It is in most cases unnecessary, however, and it is not valid on its own. Would it make sense to reject the Cyclic Model of the universe solely because you feel it is less optimistic, while ignoring the math involved? Most religious hypotheses are either true or false, and their emotional appeal has nothing to do with their truth or falsehood. Logic and evidence are crucial.
 

Totenkindly

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In that case the evidence and the emotional reaction could be combined. That seems just a side note, however, considering that such religious beliefs would not have supportive evidence to begin with. It's just an extra reason to avoid it, while you already have the reason not to believe in it. If a religion presents no evidence for its validity, there needn't be any further consideration of it.

Again, absence of evidence is not evidence against. You can't make an argument from silence here.

At best, the truth remains ambiguous and has to be left "open," not closed.


It could seem valid to an individual, and, as you mentioned above, it could be its own form of evidence when the religion itself is only dealing in emotional terms. It is in most cases unnecessary, however, and it is not valid on its own. Would it make sense to reject the Cyclic Model of the universe solely because you feel it is less optimistic, while ignoring the math involved? Most religious hypotheses are either true or false, and their emotional appeal has nothing to do with their truth or falsehood. Logic and evidence are crucial.

I'm not totally in disagreement with you (and the fact is also that I tend to be "hard" when it comes to evaluating things as you do). I also drew a much harder line when younger, and thought emotional appeals were stupid and pointless. Over the years I've learned to make some allowance for them, now that I'm aware of the ambiguities in life, my own limited prescience, and how different people interpret the world.

As far as your specific question about the Cyclic Model, no, of course I wouldn't reject it based solely on an emotional appeal. But neither could I accept it on one either, without evidence. I mentally "tag" theories and beliefs with a "probability" percentage, rather than just accepting one or denying one wholesale. As I learn more, the percentage changes. I probably will never tag anything as 0% or 100% in my life.

So I think our disagreement here is probably more on the closure/openness end of things; I think you're shutting the door too quickly on pathways that you don't personally value. The truth is that there's a lot of gray and prudence is needed no matter what one believes.
 
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