• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Privatize education

Which support system for your post privatised school?

  • Charity

    Votes: 3 9.4%
  • Corporate

    Votes: 9 28.1%
  • Religious

    Votes: 7 21.9%
  • I don't know/I love government control of education

    Votes: 13 40.6%

  • Total voters
    32

reason

New member
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Messages
1,209
MBTI Type
ESFJ
How much does the average household pay in taxes for education? $1000? A private school would cost at least 8x more than this. Most people are having a hard time paying the bills they already have.
I repeat: 'I do not think that the current price of private education should not be taken as indicative of what the prices would be in a competitive market, and neither would the affordability be the same if people were paying less in taxes for public education.' The current situation is such that there is hardly any incentive for private educaters to supply education to the less wealthy, since they're competing with a public institution that forces their "customers" to pay whether they want to or not.

Would you be against having public funds attached to the kid and letting the parents choose were to send them? It works for Europe, the place with the best test scores in the world and the most educated populouses.
I think that a school voucher scheme would be a vast improvement over the current situation, but very little progress will be made on that front because of the unions, which are in turn only strong because the education system is a public one. Any union as cancerous as the teachers union is in the US would have long since killed any private company and relieved us of itself, but when attached to a public funded organisation its burden on society is almost unlimited.

In regard to the Europeans, it's not so great from my experience. There is a lot of talk in the US of Europe as though it is the promised land (particularly Sweden). It's not. Some things are better, some things are worse, other things are very similar, like the quality of public education.
 

ajblaise

Minister of Propagandhi
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
7,914
MBTI Type
INTP
I repeat: 'I do not think that the current price of private education should not be taken as indicative of what the prices would be in a competitive market, and neither would the affordability be the same if people were paying less in taxes for public education.' The current situation is such that there is hardly any incentive for private educaters to supply education to the less wealthy, since they're competing with a public institution that forces their "customers" to pay whether they want to or not.

I think that a school voucher scheme would be a vast improvement over the current situation, but very little progress will be made on that front because of the unions, which are in turn only strong because the education system is a public one. Any union as cancerous as the teachers union is in the US would have long since killed any private company and relieved us of itself, but when attached to a public funded organisation its burden on society is almost unlimited.

In regard to the Europeans, it's not so great from my experience. There is a lot of talk in the US of Europe as though it is the promised land (particularly Sweden). It's not. Some things are better, some things are worse, other things are very similar, like the quality of public education.

Competitive market or not, we are talking about figures millions of households, especially ones with several children, can't afford. The US can't afford to have a larger percentage of uneducated idiots than it already has.

A persons comfortable existence in the states relies on the education and performance of thousands of other people, which is why I have no problem with taxes for education.

You say Europe is not much different, but the test score and achievement gaps I've seen referenced are. Are Europeans just naturally smarter? Would you blame the minorities in the US for our low average test scores?
 

Enyo

New member
Joined
Aug 9, 2008
Messages
443
MBTI Type
xNTJ
I think that a school voucher scheme would be a vast improvement over the current situation, but very little progress will be made on that front because of the unions, which are in turn only strong because the education system is a public one. Any union as cancerous as the teachers union is in the US would have long since killed any private company and relieved us of itself, but when attached to a public funded organisation its burden on society is almost unlimited.

Let me start this post by saying that I am anti-union. I've had one union job, and I will never, ever have another.

That said, the teacher's unions are stronger in some states than others. Washington state, for example. In Florida, the union isn't really all that powerful. Florida is a right-to-work state. The union doesn't have much (if any) power. In fact, the union had to fight to get the teachers of Pasco County, Florida a $1000/year raise. Last time I'd spoken to my teacher friend from back home, it was still questionable as to whether or not it would happen. Average salary for teachers in Florida is about $35k/year. Some places pay less.

But I'd like to think that most people don't go into education for the money.
 

ajblaise

Minister of Propagandhi
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
7,914
MBTI Type
INTP
Let me start this post by saying that I am anti-union. I've had one union job, and I will never, ever have another.

That said, the teacher's unions are stronger in some states than others. Washington state, for example. In Florida, the union isn't really all that powerful. Florida is a right-to-work state. The union doesn't have much (if any) power. In fact, the union had to fight to get the teachers of Pasco County, Florida a $1000/year raise. Last time I'd spoken to my teacher friend from back home, it was still questionable as to whether or not it would happen. Average salary for teachers in Florida is about $35k/year. Some places pay less.

But I'd like to think that most people don't go into education for the money.

I'm not sure which states have powerful education unions and which ones don't so I'll go by the red/blue state divide which is probably close. Blue states score much higher and achieve more than red states, so maybe unions and education go well together.

I remember talking to a teacher who said his union due fees are like $300 per year, not much considering the benefits it provides...like if you are injured at your workplace and have $250,000 in hospital costs, the union picks up the tab.
 

pure_mercury

Order Now!
Joined
Feb 28, 2008
Messages
6,946
MBTI Type
ESFJ
I'm not sure which states have powerful education unions and which ones don't so I'll go by the red/blue state divide which is probably close. Blue states score much higher and achieve more than red states, so maybe unions and education go well together.

Washington, D.C. spends the most per pupil of any state/district in the country, and its public schools are range from poor to absolute nightmares.
 

ajblaise

Minister of Propagandhi
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
7,914
MBTI Type
INTP
Washington, D.C. spends the most per pupil of any state/district in the country, and its public schools are range from poor to absolute nightmares.

Taxachusetts no doubt spends a lot on education and they have good test scores as well as a very educationally achieved populous. And look at the states with the worst test scores...red states primarily. They don't spend as much on education as most of better achieving blue states.

With D.C., I hate to get racial, but don't they have a huge minority population outside the capital? Minority populations tend to under-perform where ever they are.
 

pure_mercury

Order Now!
Joined
Feb 28, 2008
Messages
6,946
MBTI Type
ESFJ
Taxachusetts no doubt spends a lot on education and they have good test scores as well as a very educationally achieved populous.

With D.C., I hate to get racial, but don't they have a huge minority population outside the capital? Minority populations tend to under-perform where ever they are.

Perhaps. There are clear IQ disparities between races (even accounting for class/education differences). I was just trying to point out that spending on students and unions and high wages don't necessarily bring about better performance. And it's not really a red state/blue state background. Many public schools in the red Mountain West are superior to their purply-blue lower Midwest neighbors. General north-ness is a better indicator of school quality, Southern California and parts of Texas and Florida notwithstanding. Of course, those states are often wealthier and have better-educated parents, too. To be fair to you, those states also often have accordingly higher spending-per-pupil, but it's not uniform district-by-district.
 

The_Liquid_Laser

Glowy Goopy Goodness
Joined
Jul 11, 2007
Messages
3,376
MBTI Type
ENTP
Why should anyone expect that? The school attendence rates hardly change when governments abolish private education and establish a monopoly, even when the government makes attendence mandatory. From my recollection of what I have heard and read on the issue, education is not something which is underconsumed, even by the poor. Moreover, privately run schools tend to produce better results with far lower costs, which helps make education more affordable, not less.

This seems counterintuitive. Do you have some data to support this claim?
 
Joined
May 27, 2008
Messages
1,026
MBTI Type
ENTP
Considering the political climate in which schools are operated these days, it's a freaking miracle if they get past basic grammar and the multiplication tables. A serious survey of history and culture might as well be on the far side of the moon.

Even in a private school setting, I think it's appropriate to leave cross-cultural studies to the secondary stage or later. Kids ought to get a rudimentary understanding of their own culture first before taking on a different one.

No way! Private schools particularly... Why spend two years on European culture when we're sitting in the States and spend a month on Africa, India, China, and pre-Europe Americas? That's absurd! Spending even a year on U.S., a year on European, and then a whole year on world history would be a far better strategy, maybe even giving kids the option of further exploring a major region in their senior years. That seems far more intelligent to me and should cause no real burden on even the dumbest kids, who'd probably be grateful for having a broader understanding of more areas than being drilled with picayune details of all fifty or whatever wars between England and France.

Details should be left to college. Kids in high school should be well-rounded, having a very good grasp of U.S. and, of course, European history... but a year of non-Euro-American history would be very beneficial to our sorely undereducated children... I find that foreigners are far better educated about Americans than vice versa, and this is problematic because the further history progresses, the less centralized all the activity of the world is becoming.
 

reason

New member
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Messages
1,209
MBTI Type
ESFJ
This seems counterintuitive. Do you have some data to support this claim?
No, not at hand. Here is the podcast I mentioned in a previous post. My comments on this thread echo the same sentiment. If you want to look for more details then I suggest you do it yourself.
 
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
1,511
MBTI Type
ENTP
With D.C., I hate to get racial, but don't they have a huge minority population outside the capital? Minority populations tend to under-perform where ever they are.

This is a common misconception and if you actually did some research, into the past or the present, you'd find plenty of counterexamples. In D.C. in fact, from the late 1800s to the 1950s, there was a black high school which continuously outperformed other white schools in the area on standardized test scores and other measures of education quality. (and don't say that test scores don't predict future success of minority students, since numerous scholarly studies have proven otherwise)
 

The_Liquid_Laser

Glowy Goopy Goodness
Joined
Jul 11, 2007
Messages
3,376
MBTI Type
ENTP
No, not at hand. Here is the podcast I mentioned in a previous post. My comments on this thread echo the same sentiment. If you want to look for more details then I suggest you do it yourself.

If I follow him correctly the speaker in the podcast was not arguing against public funding in education as much as he was government control. I could agree with that. :yes: I don't see any problem with the government backing off in the area of public education laws as long as they were still providing most of the funding.
 

pure_mercury

Order Now!
Joined
Feb 28, 2008
Messages
6,946
MBTI Type
ESFJ
If I follow him correctly the speaker in the podcast was not arguing against public funding in education as much as he was government control. I could agree with that. :yes: I don't see any problem with the government backing off in the area of public education laws as long as they were still providing most of the funding.

I am a firm believer that the more local level of government involved, the better. The only problem is that you will get idiots trying to teach Intelligent Design in public schools in some areas (like Dover, PA, which is only two hours away from where I live).
 

ajblaise

Minister of Propagandhi
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
7,914
MBTI Type
INTP
This is a common misconception and if you actually did some research, into the past or the present, you'd find plenty of counterexamples. In D.C. in fact, from the late 1800s to the 1950s, there was a black high school which continuously outperformed other white schools in the area on standardized test scores and other measures of education quality. (and don't say that test scores don't predict future success of minority students, since numerous scholarly studies have proven otherwise)

Are you sure these cases aren't just exceptions to the rule? I'm glad to hear about a black high school outperforming a white one, but for the most part, I don't think that's the case...I've heard too many news stories about black under performing....some black high schools have 50% drop out rates.
 

pure_mercury

Order Now!
Joined
Feb 28, 2008
Messages
6,946
MBTI Type
ESFJ
Are you sure these cases aren't just exceptions to the rule? I'm glad to hear about a black high school outperforming a white one, but for the most part, I don't think that's the case...I've heard too many news stories about black under performing....some black high schools have 50% drop out rates.

It's not just "black" schools in the inner city anymore. Many groups of immigrants are flooding public schools, so they have to deal with both bad facilities and resources AND troublemaking students AND kids who don't speak English at home.
 

ajblaise

Minister of Propagandhi
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
7,914
MBTI Type
INTP
It's not just "black" schools in the inner city anymore. Many groups of immigrants are flooding public schools, so they have to deal with both bad facilities and resources AND troublemaking students AND kids who don't speak English at home.

Yeah, it's minorities in general, but blacks were what was being discussed.
 

murkrow

Branded with Satan
Joined
Jul 19, 2008
Messages
1,635
MBTI Type
INTJ
If I follow him correctly the speaker in the podcast was not arguing against public funding in education as much as he was government control. I could agree with that. :yes: I don't see any problem with the government backing off in the area of public education laws as long as they were still providing most of the funding.

You know we fund the government right?
 
Top