What if someone doesn't want wealth, fame, or even happiness?

[Lark]

How would you react to people who don't desire wealth, fame, or happiness*?

Would you believe they were kidding themselves? Would you force them to admit they do desire wealth, fame, and happiness?

If these people said they have passing desires for these things, but the desires subside quickly, would you feel alienated? Would you alienate them?

*By happiness, I mean being in a good mood.

Why is it important what someone else believes? Why is your reaction important?

Why would you force anyone to admit anything? How would you force anyone to admit anything?

What do you mean by alienate? Do you mean estrangement? As in you would find them unrelateable and would choose to disassociate from them?

 

[Lark]

I'll add something here because I'm not trolling or playing games or pursuing a line of questioning in order to trip you up or trick you [MENTION=825]ygolo[/MENTION].

The opinions of people, how they reach their conclusions and whether or not they can be persuaded to change them can be something really important to people in their teens, twenties and even later. I'm often interested in how introverts and extroverts feel about this.

Peoples beliefs have consequences, so, yeah, they are important, although what are the consequences? For you and for them, maybe they arent that major and this can afford some perspective in these matters.

Its not a good habit to get into trying to force your beliefs on others, persuasion of someone on even a good point is very difficult and sometimes impossible, a lot of the time putting up an argument is sufficient to get them to retrench their own views and opinions. Speak your truth and allow them to speak theirs, if they are interested you can sign post them in a particular direction or telegraph views, opinions and resources to them but that's it.

Particularly in western societies people are less and less willing to tolerate evangelism or proselytism, whatever the cause happens to be, some people dont even like people who exhibit any sort of certainty about anything. A lot of opinion is identified immediately with ideologies, schools of thought, movements toward which people have feelings, baggage, associate certain behaviours or sentiments.

A lot gets imported into any discussion which doesnt belong there and not many people are interested in knowing their own filters or internal scripts, if you ask me, get down right hostile and angered by anyone pointing it out, in part because I think human beings are just wired for defensiveness but also because people get sore at any impression they get people are dismissing their views and by extention they themselves.

Whether you'd be estranged from someone because of their opinions or not, well, I can see how some views arent relateable but people are more generally than their opinions on a single issue when it comes to whether or not they are compatible as a friend or associate, also the consequences matter, as I said already. Whether or not you should disassociate from them, well, that's going to be a question of consequences for me, personally, but whether or not someone simply having an opinion of their own is enough to compell thinking and behaviour on your part could be instead a reason for some introspection.

On a side note, more generally speaking, its positively sado-masochistic to try and control the thinking of others, ultimately futile and telling on an individual, it wears people down, no matter how much self-assurity the charismatic sadist can project they're dependent upon others outside themselves.

 

[á´…eparted]

I'd need more context, but I'd likely think there's something wrong with them and pay them no mind.

 

[93JC]

Well if you edit it, you can make me say anything, can't you? Actually, I think there's an underlying state of being that isn't emotion at all. It's affirmation of being alive, the full presence which can create happiness, but is its own point. This is what lies at the apex of climbing a mountain, getting involved in a love affair, or even cutting oneself. Monkeys have it, ameobas have it, and we have to work for it.

I didn't say it, you did! I don't understand why you're arguing, we agree completely.

 

[corpseparty]

I was driving to work today thinking about something like this.

I have always wondered what it would be like to suddenly gain a great deal of intelligence, fame etc. and I decided that in the end nothing would really change. I would perhaps accomplish more in my life, but in the end I would wither away and die. For whatever reason that helped relax my mind. I am always afraid that I will be stuck in my state of life because of my own weakness' and coming to terms with that isn't the easiest, for anyone I imagine. Knowing that nothing would change comforted me in its own terrifying way.

 

[Such Irony]

I couldn't care less if someone doesn't want fame and fortune (people who pathologically seek fame and fortune tend to be self-absorbed assholes in my experience...).

Happiness though? I call BS.

That's exactly what I was thinking. Not want happiness in life? I'd suspect you were severely depressed or suicidal.

 

[gromit]

I have a hard time imagining not wanting at least happiness.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

I'd rather have extensive knowledge than extensive happiness, although I'll take both if I can get them. Fame would get old REALLY FAST. Wealth would be nice, not for the sake of being rich, but so that I could divide my time between travel and working for myself.

 

[Lark]

I'd need more context, but I'd likely think there's something wrong with them and pay them no mind.

I think context is important, it could be someone who is depressed and despondent or demotivated but it could be someone who is on some kind of Zen or spiritual detachment trip.

 

[Lark]

That's exactly what I was thinking. Not want happiness in life? I'd suspect you were severely depressed or suicidal.

Yeah but it could, as I say, as easily be some Zen, no self, philosophical trip.

I suspect that could be the case because it sounds like some sort of discussion or dialogue on that kind of topic, on the other hand it could be someone who was is talking to someone is interested in repressing their emotions, neither showing any distress, nor any joy in anything.

I find that sort of thing is more and more typical of younger people, maybe its just that I'm getting older and its intergenerational distance but I pick up on a mood change online, and I'm aware that "my online", which is forums and social media, is smaller than the real online, the mass online, which is constituted by the X Box and other consoles and mobile network mediums.

It used to be a social class and communities under stress thing, I know for definite that growing up at the end of the troubles and the end of (working) class consciousness in NI/UK, there was a real cultural push to be "hard", its still there too. Its more than machismo, although that's a big part of it, its about being virtually desensitised, validating the stone cold, valourising psychopathy. Were I think this could have at a time been about mental toughness, resilence or "stiff upper lip", its something else now, something right and bad since its adopted by lots of people who dont know how to act and is a barrier in the way of them learning how.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

If a person doesn't want happiness, what do they want, and what would be the result of them getting it?

 

[Mole]

Context is of prime importance. If our Constitution guarantees the pursuit of happiness, then quite unconsciously we pursue happiness.

Unfortunately the pursuit of happiness guarantees depression, anxiety, and their psychological defences.

But worse, we see our Constitution as a model for other peoples. So we have the world's greatest propaganda machine, and the world's greatest military, and the world's largest economy, to persuade others to follow in our footsteps.

So to reject the pursuit of happiness means rejecting the best Constitution in the world. It is tantamount to rejecting our loving parents.

It's the perfect trap.

 

[Pionart]

If a person doesn't want happiness, what do they want, and what would be the result of them getting it?

Health, productivity, wisdom, to remain unmoved by life's ups and downs.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

Health, productivity, wisdom, to remain unmoved by life's ups and downs.

So what is the result of getting that?
Why does one want that? What is its purpose? How does one know they want that?

 

[SpankyMcFly]

How would you react to people who don't desire wealth, fame, or happiness*?

It would depend on other factors like similar interests, open mindedness etc.

Would you believe they were kidding themselves?.

Most likely yes.

Would you force them to admit they do desire wealth, fame, and happiness?

Absolutely not. I might share information with them (if they solicited it) and exercise "positive influence".

If these people said they have passing desires for these things, but the desires subside quickly, would you feel alienated?

No.

Would you alienate them?

Weak sauce.

I would like to reframe this. Suffering is an opposite of happiness. Reducing "suffering" can increase happiness. Someone who does not try to avoid "suffering" probably has something going on that may need professional help.

 

[Pionart]

So what is the result of getting that?
Why does one want that? What is its purpose? How does one know they want that?

Health creates a better functioning mind and body. Productivity means functioning within the bigger picture and doing one's duty. Wisdom allows one to see things in a clearer light, being unmoved gives one the freedom to focus on what really matters. One knows they want these things by seeing that these things work, that they allow one to fulfil their purpose. One may simply want these things and not know why, or may learn through religion.

Why should someone want happiness?

 

[ygolo]

Wow. A lot more responses than I thought there would be over the last couple of days. I have been rather busy IRL.

it's not possible to be in a good mood all the time, unless you have severe brain damage, but no i wouldn't want that. but i took it to mean no happiness whatsoever

Complete absence of wealth seems like a rather impractical thing too.

Good mood, joyousness, etc, are unequivocally good, except at funerals. Some of us find a type of meta-joy of the experience of just being human, this makes sense to me because so much of life is not joy, you may as well value the bad bits for exactly what they are on their own terms and get meaning from them. This leads to wanting happiness really not being a core desire. It comes and goes at its will, wanted or not. Here's a little secret, some e4's, I won't mention who, sometimes look forward to some cathartic sadness, anger, true jealousy, etc. Though in health they are 'happy' to take it as it comes, and it always does if you're really living.

There are plenty of other circumstances when a serious demeanor is appropriate. Dealing with a friend in pain. Handling a crucial decision. Doing things that require concentration. Taking care of something that requires doing something uncomfortable…
Nevertheless, I think I know what you were getting at.

You can define happiness however you like, but "smiling all the time" is a very narrow definition.

From Wiktionary:

happy (adj.)

Content; satisfied (with or to do something); having no objection (to something).​

I don't believe anyone who says that they don't want basic satisfaction and contentment with their life. Frankly I would characterize someone who says otherwise as deeply depressed or ill.

The definition I was referring to was more in line with:
From dictionary.reference.com
Happy(adj.)

feeling, showing, or expressing joy; pleased​

Happiness(noun)

good fortune; pleasure; contentment; joy.​

I am talking explicitly about the affect of feeling happy. Not general satisfaction with life, nor engagement/flow, nor finding meaning or purpose. I am talking about being in a good mood or high mood. The desire for pleasure

It may be a narrow definition, but not an unusual one.

A doctor working under stress to save a patient, a runner working through the pain of the last miles of a marathon, and a cop working a murder investigation may find meaning and purpose in what they are doing, or engaged in a state of flow (which in fact is neutral in affect), but their moods in these activities are usually not high.
From the very beginning, my emphasis has been on mood. I could have perhaps chosen a better word, but I am surprised the distinction between these differing types of happiness is unfamiliar to you. We’ve talked about it before.
[MENTION=22833]Legion[/MENTION] [MENTION=10653]Such Irony[/MENTION] [MENTION=9486]gromit[/MENTION] [MENTION=8584]SpankyMcFly[/MENTION] [MENTION=20829]Hard[/MENTION] [MENTION=1449]Magic Poriferan[/MENTION], would your responses change knowing that I am referring explicitly to mood?
[MENTION=7280]Lark[/MENTION] , the reason this question is important to me, is that I think we as a society place such a premium on high mood that many avoid people who don’t care so much for it. I think a large reason why a lot of people are more miserable than they would otherwise be, is because they are put upon to be in a higher mood…not just more grateful, or more satisfied with life, or engagement. People are told to smile more, The lack of smiling is seen as an indictment of character or attitude.

I think [MENTION=10714]Qlip[/MENTION] [MENTION=22833]Legion[/MENTION] and [MENTION=3325]Mole[/MENTION] have some idea of what I was getting at. I could have perhaps been more articulate. But I am referring to the philosophy of hedonism. I use the word “happy” because that is the word hedonists use too.

 

[93JC]

[...]

If what you really meant is "What if someone doesn't want wealth, fame, or to seem happy to others all the time by smiling and otherwise affecting 'happiness'?" then... whatever, I couldn't care less.

 

[á´…eparted]

Would your responses change knowing that I am referring explicitly to mood?

Unlikely. I would still need context of the persons situation.

 

[Mole]

We are meaning creating animals, so wealth, fame, and happiness, only take their place within a framework of meaning.

So wealth, fame, and happiness, are secondary to meaning.