• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

What if someone doesn't want wealth, fame, or even happiness?

ygolo

My termites win
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Messages
5,986
How would you react to people who don't desire wealth, fame, or happiness*?

Would you believe they were kidding themselves? Would you force them to admit they do desire wealth, fame, and happiness?

If these people said they have passing desires for these things, but the desires subside quickly, would you feel alienated? Would you alienate them?

*By happiness, I mean being in a good mood.
 

Siúil a Rúin

when the colors fade
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
14,037
MBTI Type
ISFP
Enneagram
496
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
They might have a stronger desire for realism, for acceptance of what reality is most likely to be. If honesty is the highest value, then these other desires for extravagance could easily be seen as nonsense.

I can somewhat relate to the idea, except that I do strongly desire a simple, peaceful happiness. I'm not working towards fame or wealth as much as other people similar to me would be, and I see those as pragmatic states that can be used to initiate more good in the world. I have zero desire for a fancy house or car, and I don't want people to give me preferential treatment because of external trappings. I also don't want want a giddy, indulgent happiness, but a sense of meaning and peace.
 

ceecee

Coolatta® Enjoyer
Joined
Apr 22, 2008
Messages
15,908
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
8w9
How would you react to people who don't desire wealth, fame, or happiness*?

Would you believe they were kidding themselves? Would you force them to admit they do desire wealth, fame, and happiness?

If these people said they have passing desires for these things, but the desires subside quickly, would you feel alienated? Would you alienate them?

*By happiness, I mean being in a good mood.

Huh? Why would I care? Why would I feel alienated? Force them to admit they really want these things? That's ridiculous. Even if they were lying, why would I care, it has no impact on me whatsoever. They're free to feel any way they want. I can say that I desire happiness, probably wealth but fame? Hell no. I don't care if you believe that or not.
 

prplchknz

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
34,397
MBTI Type
yupp
I don't want wealth or fame but i do want happiness but i don't think happiness comes from wealth or fame i'd actually argue the opposite. my desire is to afford a one bed room place, internet, be able to live debt free, a car that runs, and a dog or a cat. now perhaps that might require wealth these days, but i think comfortably middle class is a good goal for me.
 

Lexicon

Temporal Mechanic
Staff member
Joined
Sep 28, 2008
Messages
12,342
MBTI Type
JINX
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Huh? Why would I care? Why would I feel alienated? Force them to admit they really want these things? That's ridiculous. Even if they were lying, why would I care, it has no impact on me whatsoever. They're free to feel any way they want.

That, ^ basically. Not everyone cares for wealth or fame. I don't. I know many people who don't. Happiness, or "good mood," on the other hand, can have a variety of definitions. I'd wonder how this particular person defined happiness. If it were interchangeable with fulfillment, or a sense of inner peace. It seems so basic that we all want those things in some form or another. Some semblance of a sustainable inner peace helps with managing the stressors of daily life, which can take a toll on one's mental and physical health. If we'd broken things down in a conversation, and concluded he/she had little to no regard for his/her own health- I would be concerned on a core human level - try to make sure there wasn't something out of the ordinary going on in his/her life that drove this concept home. If nothing seemed amiss- I'd just let 'em be. If something did seem off, I'd try to be supportive- if the support were wanted. If not, I'd let 'em be. In the end it's their life, not mine. Nothing would change between us, socially. I wouldn't judge them harshly for how they wish to live. A life choice (or lack of desire) like that is no affront to my own existence.
 

Opal

New member
Joined
Jan 16, 2014
Messages
1,391
MBTI Type
ENTP
How would you react to people who don't desire wealth, fame, or happiness*?

Would you believe they were kidding themselves? Would you force them to admit they do desire wealth, fame, and happiness?

If these people said they have passing desires for these things, but the desires subside quickly, would you feel alienated? Would you alienate them?

*By happiness, I mean being in a good mood.

I don't think it's possible not to want happiness, though I think we all prefer different flavors of experience. An author may be most inspired by sadness, but find the most happiness in inspiration. :shrug:

Maybe contentedness is a better word.
 

93JC

Active member
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
3,989
I couldn't care less if someone doesn't want fame and fortune (people who pathologically seek fame and fortune tend to be self-absorbed assholes in my experience...).

Happiness though? I call BS.
 

Snoopy22

New member
Joined
Dec 29, 2008
Messages
355
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w1
Instinctual Variant
so/sp
Many people do not desire wealth or fame; I have no ideal how happiness would fit into this. Having or managing something is not the same as desiring it.
 

Qlip

Post Human Post
Joined
Jul 30, 2010
Messages
8,464
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I guess I would understand where they were coming from??

I think the world is messed up in the expectation that everybody should want the same things.

As far as happiness is concerned, it really depends on the definition. I want to be healthy, and well adjusted, this doesn't mean that I want to be smiling all the time. I think in the world we live in, in the reality of life, being happy all the time is a type of insanity and denial, and even in a perfect world it's not a reasonable thing to expect in the continual growth of a well adjusted human being.
 

Galena

Silver and Lead
Joined
Mar 12, 2013
Messages
3,786
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Wealth and fame represent a surplus of two things we do need to survive: shelter and interpersonal connection. With that root, I would expect an instinctive draw in anybody toward getting more of those, especially if they fear loss of them or set their personal definition of survival really high. Our values don't have to go the same way as our instincts, though. If someone didn't want any greater wealth or renown than they needed, I would be pleased to have found someone I can relate to on that.

About happiness, now that would be an interesting conversation. There are many possible definitions of happiness, and though I view some as healthy, there are others I reject, too. I'd want to talk with them about how each of us defines it, whether our culture has a generally accepted definition and what use that is, and the story or logic behind how they came to the conclusion of rejecting their definition. I'd want to get to know them better.

Yeah, this is basically the same as the post above mine. :D
 

ygolo

My termites win
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Messages
5,986
Huh? Why would I care? Why would I feel alienated? Force them to admit they really want these things? That's ridiculous. Even if they were lying, why would I care, it has no impact on me whatsoever. They're free to feel any way they want. I can say that I desire happiness, probably wealth but fame? Hell no. I don't care if you believe that or not.

I think it is rare for people to react to wealth and fame in this way. But happiness/good mood* seems like something most people I know would take as something that is more than a fleeting desire. [MENTION=5837]93JC[/MENTION] "called BS" on it. That's the type of reaction I meant.

"Forcing people to admit that they really wanted it" is rather hyperbolic, I admit. But almost everyone in the thread thinks that the desire for good mood is something unlike the other two.

Wealth is seen as just a means to other ends, like basic physiological needs and things of that sort. I don't have a clue what the appeal of fame is, but I imagine it has something to do with having the trust of others and/or wanting to leave a legacy taken to some ridiculous extremes.

By good mood, I did mean something along the lines of wanting to be smiling all the time. This is of course an extreme, just as wanting to the richest person in the world, or wanting to known and liked by everyone.

When people pursue wealth outside the context having enough to live, and do so with abandon even at the expense of others, they justify it as a form of enlightened self-interest ("Greed is good").

When someone pursues fame outside the context of having a purpose from themselves and do so with abandon even at the expense of others, they again justify it as a form of enlightened self-interest ("Let go of the 'little people'.").

When someone pursues elation** outside the context of being healthy and do so with abandon even at the expense of others, they again justify it as a form of enlightened self-interedt ("Gotta do what make me happy").

ceecee, although I only quoted you. This post was meant as a clarification for everyone who posted in the thread. "Happiness" is a vague term, as is "alienation". [MENTION=14857]fia[/MENTION] [MENTION=360]prplchknz[/MENTION] [MENTION=5159]Lexicon[/MENTION] [MENTION=20757]Opal[/MENTION] [MENTION=5928]Snoopy22[/MENTION] [MENTION=10714]Qlip[/MENTION] [MENTION=17945]Nixie[/MENTION],

Since everyone seemed to have the same reaction, I figured I was unclear, and would clarify it once.

*I hope what I meant is a little more clear.
**Is elation a better word?
 

prplchknz

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
34,397
MBTI Type
yupp
it's not possible to be in a good mood all the time, unless you have severe brain damage, but no i wouldn't want that. but i took it to mean no happiness whatsoever
 

Kullervo

Permabanned
Joined
May 15, 2014
Messages
3,298
MBTI Type
N/A
How would you react to people who don't desire wealth, fame, or happiness*?

Not everybody desires wealth and fame. I don't - I want to be happy with myself and my creations, and feel that they are good enough for me. Any recognition I get from others is great, but ultimately it is a bonus. I also dread the thought of being a celebrity, as a peaceful private life is very important to me. If anything, I'd prefer to be recognised after my death than during my life.

As for happiness, I feel that if somebody doesn't desire to be happy they are most likely very depressed. How we aim to achieve happiness will vary substantially, but I do believe that the desire for personal fulfillment is almost universal.

Would you believe they were kidding themselves? Would you force them to admit they do desire wealth, fame, and happiness?

No, and no.
 

Qlip

Post Human Post
Joined
Jul 30, 2010
Messages
8,464
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I think it is rare for people to react to wealth and fame in this way. But happiness/good mood* seems like something most people I know would take as something that is more than a fleeting desire. [MENTION=5837]93JC[/MENTION] "called BS" on it. That's the type of reaction I meant.

"Forcing people to admit that they really wanted it" is rather hyperbolic, I admit. But almost everyone in the thread thinks that the desire for good mood is something unlike the other two.

Wealth is seen as just a means to other ends, like basic physiological needs and things of that sort. I don't have a clue what the appeal of fame is, but I imagine it has something to do with having the trust of others and/or wanting to leave a legacy taken to some ridiculous extremes.

By good mood, I did mean something along the lines of wanting to be smiling all the time. This is of course an extreme, just as wanting to the richest person in the world, or wanting to known and liked by everyone.

When people pursue wealth outside the context having enough to live, and do so with abandon even at the expense of others, they justify it as a form of enlightened self-interest ("Greed is good").

When someone pursues fame outside the context of having a purpose from themselves and do so with abandon even at the expense of others, they again justify it as a form of enlightened self-interest ("Let go of the 'little people'.").

When someone pursues elation** outside the context of being healthy and do so with abandon even at the expense of others, they again justify it as a form of enlightened self-interedt ("Gotta do what make me happy").

ceecee, although I only quoted you. This post was meant as a clarification for everyone who posted in the thread. "Happiness" is a vague term, as is "alienation". [MENTION=14857]fia[/MENTION] [MENTION=360]prplchknz[/MENTION] [MENTION=5159]Lexicon[/MENTION] [MENTION=20757]Opal[/MENTION] [MENTION=5928]Snoopy22[/MENTION] [MENTION=10714]Qlip[/MENTION] [MENTION=17945]Nixie[/MENTION],

Since everyone seemed to have the same reaction, I figured I was unclear, and would clarify it once.

*I hope what I meant is a little more clear.
**Is elation a better word?

Good mood, joyousness, etc, are unequivocally good, except at funerals. Some of us find a type of meta-joy of the experience of just being human, this makes sense to me because so much of life is not joy, you may as well value the bad bits for exactly what they are on their own terms and get meaning from them. This leads to wanting happiness really not being a core desire. It comes and goes at its will, wanted or not. Here's a little secret, some e4's, I won't mention who, sometimes look forward to some cathartic sadness, anger, true jealousy, etc. Though in health they are 'happy' to take it as it comes, and it always does if you're really living.
 

93JC

Active member
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
3,989
I think it is rare for people to react to wealth and fame in this way. But happiness/good mood* seems like something most people I know would take as something that is more than a fleeting desire. [MENTION=5837]93JC[/MENTION] "called BS" on it. That's the type of reaction I meant.

[...]

By good mood, I did mean something along the lines of wanting to be smiling all the time.

[...]

ceecee, although I only quoted you. This post was meant as a clarification for everyone who posted in the thread. "Happiness" is a vague term, as is "alienation".

You can define happiness however you like, but "smiling all the time" is a very narrow definition.

From Wiktionary:

happy (adj.)

Content; satisfied (with or to do something); having no objection (to something).​


I don't believe anyone who says that they don't want basic satisfaction and contentment with their life. Frankly I would characterize someone who says otherwise as deeply depressed or ill.
 

Qlip

Post Human Post
Joined
Jul 30, 2010
Messages
8,464
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
You can define happiness however you like, but "smiling all the time" is a very narrow definition.

From Wiktionary:

happy (adj.)

Content; satisfied (with or to do something); having no objection (to something).​


I don't believe anyone who says that they don't want basic satisfaction and contentment with their life. Frankly I would characterize someone who says otherwise as deeply depressed or ill.

It's a heck more complicated than that. When a person decides to climb a mountain. Knowing as rational individuals that 80% of it will be uncomfortableness and exasperation and fear with a small amount of short lived elation at the end, how to does this overriding desire for 'contentedness and satisfaction' come into play?

People can object to contentedness itself. People find satisfaction in objecting to things.

All I know and I can say truthfully, I'm not mentally ill, I welcome happiness but I don't actively want it above a lot of other things, like experience and challenge, at least not beyond a healthy measure. I can say the same for water, and air, but people don't categorize that as a motivator or want, unless like happiness, they just don't have quite enough.

I guess this equates to saying that I'm only content when I have some measure of discontentedness in my life. Or equally I'm discontent to have nothing to object to in my life. *shrug* When the answer doesn't make sense, it's usually because the question is silly.
 

93JC

Active member
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
3,989
It's a heck more complicated than that.

No, it's incredibly simple.

E.g.

When a person decides to climb a mountain. Knowing as rational individuals that 80% of it will be uncomfortableness and exasperation and fear with a small amount of short lived elation at the end, how to does this overriding desire for 'contentedness and satisfaction' come into play?

Because climbing the mountain makes them happy.

I ... want ... experience and challenge

Because that makes you HAPPY.

Thank you for re-affirming my point.
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
This is a difficult question to answer so I consulted the CIA who suggested I tie them to a chair and torture them until they wanted wealth, fame, and happiness.
 

Qlip

Post Human Post
Joined
Jul 30, 2010
Messages
8,464
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
No, it's incredibly simple.

E.g.



Because climbing the mountain makes them happy.



Because that makes you HAPPY.

Thank you for re-affirming my point.

Well if you edit it, you can make me say anything, can't you? Actually, I think there's an underlying state of being that isn't emotion at all. It's affirmation of being alive, the full presence which can create happiness, but is its own point. This is what lies at the apex of climbing a mountain, getting involved in a love affair, or even cutting oneself. Monkeys have it, ameobas have it, and we have to work for it.
 

Pionart

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
4,039
MBTI Type
NiFe
I don't see why wealth or fame would be desirable. But, the level of wealth I want would be considered very wealthy by 95% of the world. I mean, I would like a house, I guess.

As for happiness, we are programmed to want it. You probably would be fooling yourself if you said you didn't want it. But there's a difference between implicitly and explicitly wanting something.

Happiness is something to use not something to strive for.
 
Top