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Arguing the Existence or Non-existence of God--the thread that never ends

Avocado

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there could've been a major flood in the region though. the mesopotamian's also had a flood story that sounds similar to the noah one. but that's just saying there could have been a flood. more of flood's happen but we didn't have the technology to explain it back then. most things that can now be explained by science but not really any other way got explained with religion. I don't think the whole earth flooded, but it's not unreasonable considering there was not really good transportation and people had limited scope of the world that to them the flood was the whole world. especially if it's big enough. and both religions are from pretty much the same region. but there's no evidence of the stories being around because of a flood or if they're even the same flood

The Flood: Mesopotamian Archaeological Evidence | NCSE
(I've not read the whole thing just skimmed it, because it's long, I was looking for evidence for my argument)
That said, [MENTION=360]prplchknz[/MENTION], if a God was telling the story, wouldn't it be more accurate to say "I shall flood the entire land of Ur"? The boat was too big to be seaworthy if it was made of wood, but too small for the world's animals. Even if only the local species were rescued, it would be a very tight fit.
 

prplchknz

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That said, [MENTION=360]prplchknz[/MENTION], if a God was telling the story, wouldn't it be more accurate to say "I shall flood the entire land of Ur"? The boat was too big to be seaworthy if it was made of wood, but too small for the world's animals. Even if only the local species were rescued, it would be a very tight fit.

i'm not arguing that at all. I'm simply mentioning that some things in the bible might've been real events that people couldn't explain or oppurtunist saw it as an oppurtunity to convince people of something. and so the flood could've happened (but there's no proof)given the region and some people were like :thinking: and added the religious elements to it. and people like things to be explained.
 

Avocado

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i'm not arguing that at all. I'm simply mentioning that some things in the bible might've been real events that people couldn't explain or oppurtunist saw it as an oppurtunity to convince people of something. and so the flood could've happened (but there's no proof)given the region and some people were like :thinking: and added the religious elements to it. and people like things to be explained.

The story of Troy was similar. The Greeks heavily mythologized the tale to the point it could not be, yet Troy existed and the Trojan War happened.
 

prplchknz

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The story of Troy was similar. The Greeks heavily mythologized the tale to the point it could not be, yet Troy existed and the Trojan War happened.

yes, i have no interest in proving or disproving god. I just was reminded of that and thought i'd share.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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That said, [MENTION=360]prplchknz[/MENTION], if a God was telling the story, wouldn't it be more accurate to say "I shall flood the entire land of Ur"? The boat was too big to be seaworthy if it was made of wood, but too small for the world's animals. Even if only the local species were rescued, it would be a very tight fit.

The beauty of the Old Testament was, in a word, its symbolism. The Hebrew people did not believe in expressing themselves with visual art like all other cultures because they believed (2nd Commandment) making images was a sin. They were nomadic and lived on what God gave them daily (daily bread), at least until they became the Nation of Israel, so they were poor, desert dwellers for the most part. Now consider that their contribution was the Old Testament. They poured every ounce of their expression into their stories of God and passed them down for eons before they were even written down. We can't point to a great sculpture or painting or pyramid and say, "Those were God's people," but we can point to the Bible, the most widely sold book in the world, and say, "That is from God's people."

All that to say that their story, our story if you choose to align yourself thus, was their art form and their poetry. It wasn't to be ONLY taken literally as modern Christians seem to want to do. It is uncannily similar to the historical record we have to go by. And more evidence is forthcoming all the time. I have already blogged about how the 6 days of creation align very well with events surrounding, and after, the Big Bang.

Most people are familiar with the 10 Commandments. As we read the beginning of Genesis, the story of creation, and of the founding fathers of this religion that believes in One God, ALHYM; it goes along and we notice that the longer man lives on the earth, the more his sin spreads. First his sin is just against God, then his sin is against his family, finally his sin is against society and "every thought in man's mind is evil all the day long."

That is the exact time when God decides to flood the earth and start over with Noah and Noah's 3 sons. These sons are super important because they are going to establish the line of the chosen people of God. Before Jesus, genealogy was an especially important thing. God is being Supreme Ruler and Judge. He is fed up that all man can do is evil and He has the right to annihilate the very man he created!

So the flood comes upon the 'land' or 'earth'. It is only about 20 feet deep per Bible description, and this correlates with sedimentary lines in the region of the Holy Land. The ark is 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high. It is to have 3 elevations or floors, which is meaningful as 3 means circle. It is made of Cypress trees covered with pitch and only had one door and one window.

Our context here is the HOLY LAND and God's Chosen People who lived there, who had begun in the Garden of Eden (which likely originated in Jericho, probably the oldest town on earth). For all intents and purposes, this IS the world. There was no reason to specify that is was Ur or Jericho or any other place because that would limit the story, when the whole point of the Hebrews' story is to show off the magnanimity of their God, to make it larger than life because our God is larger than life!

This IS the area and the people God cared most about. It is therefore unreasonable to believe that it refers to all the world. This size ark would be perfect for donkeys, camels, goats, sheep, fowl, and the other animals inhabiting that region, and establishing a future with the Hebrew people.
 

Avocado

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The beauty of the Old Testament was, in a word, its symbolism. The Hebrew people did not believe in expressing themselves with visual art like all other cultures because they believed (2nd Commandment) making images was a sin. They were nomadic and lived on what God gave them daily (daily bread), at least until they became the Nation of Israel, so they were poor, desert dwellers for the most part. Now consider that their contribution was the Old Testament. They poured every ounce of their expression into their stories of God and passed them down for eons before they were even written down. We can't point to a great sculpture or painting or pyramid and say, "Those were God's people," but we can point to the Bible, the most widely sold book in the world, and say, "That is from God's people."

All that to say that their story, our story if you choose to align yourself thus, was their art form and their poetry. It wasn't to be ONLY taken literally as modern Christians seem to want to do. It is uncannily similar to the historical record we have to go by. And more evidence is forthcoming all the time. I have already blogged about how the 6 days of creation align very well with events surrounding, and after, the Big Bang.

Most people are familiar with the 10 Commandments. As we read the beginning of Genesis, the story of creation, and of the founding fathers of this religion that believes in One God, ALHYM; it goes along and we notice that the longer man lives on the earth, the more his sin spreads. First his sin is just against God, then his sin is against his family, finally his sin is against society and "every thought in man's mind is evil all the day long."

That is the exact time when God decides to flood the earth and start over with Noah and Noah's 3 sons. These sons are super important because they are going to establish the line of the chosen people of God. Before Jesus, genealogy was an especially important thing. God is being Supreme Ruler and Judge. He is fed up that all man can do is evil and He has the right to annihilate the very man he created!

So the flood comes upon the 'land' or 'earth'. It is only about 20 feet deep per Bible description, and this correlates with sedimentary lines in the region of the Holy Land. The ark is 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high. It is to have 3 elevations or floors, which is meaningful as 3 means circle. It is made of Cypress trees covered with pitch and only had one door and one window.

Our context here is the HOLY LAND and God's Chosen People who lived there, who had begun in the Garden of Eden (which likely originated in Jericho, probably the oldest town on earth). For all intents and purposes, this IS the world. There was no reason to specify that is was Ur or Jericho or any other place because that would limit the story, when the whole point of the Hebrews' story is to show off the magnanimity of their God, to make it larger than life because our God is larger than life!

This IS the area and the people God cared most about. It is therefore unreasonable to believe that it refers to all the world. This size ark would be perfect for donkeys, camels, goats, sheep, fowl, and the other animals inhabiting that region, and establishing a future with the Hebrew people.

Interesting assertion, but the story has the boat land on mount Ararat. Also, do me a favor and look at the longest wooden ship ever built. It twisted apart in rough seas.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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I hadn't gotten to its landing though.

These were not seas. It was more like a pontoon boat than a ship I believe.
 

Chthonic

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The beauty of the Old Testament was, in a word, its symbolism.

This IS the area and the people God cared most about. It is therefore unreasonable to believe that it refers to all the world. This size ark would be perfect for donkeys, camels, goats, sheep, fowl, and the other animals inhabiting that region, and establishing a future with the Hebrew people.

So we're essentially talking about a handful of ancient villages in the middle east with a local God who caused a shallow flooding of a plain and saved the local farm animals. Okay I can see how this must be relevant to the entire globe and is something to live our lives by. :dry:

My argument for the non-existence of God is actually your argument for it. The God of the Hebrews appears no more powerful, nor more relevant than any localised deity to whom miraculous feats are ascribed. There are thousands if not millions of similarly themed symbolic stories all over the world. Is the fact that this one made it onto papyrus rather than living on in oral tradition surety that it's any more correct, or relevant than any other mythology out there?

Sure the story has been embellished and reprinted many times, only through significant support by wealthy parties with their own agenda's. Not dissimilar to how bestsellers occur in both fiction and non-fiction now. Someone sponsors the work to notoriety because it's financially expedient to do so. I don't see government and church backing as assurance in it's correctness. In fact I see the government and church backing as highly suspicious. It's plainly obvious both organisations are riddled with corruption, always have been. They are the agents of human whim rather than divine will, any cursory look at history will see both church and state manipulating law in tandem to achieve very material ends.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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All valid points.

God causes everything to happen, God created everything, and God saves. When you are in love with someone-when someone makes you feel alive and brings you out of the stagnation you were in, it's natural to think of them as larger than life. With God it's like this but magnified! The Hebrews illustrate their reverence for Him in part by speaking of Him in supernatural ways, because He does supernatural things: He delivers us from our captivity, loves us unconditionally, provides for our every need, and gives us peace. The 'proof' of God resides in how utterly good you feel no matter what is going on around you.

The argument for God will not be won by letters on a screen or debates won or lost. The argument for God occurs in each person's heart, soul, and mind as they become filled with the Holy Spirit, which nothing else can emulate.
 

Chthonic

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And yet I could make the exact same assertions about the Law Of Attraction, Buddhism, Celtic deities and roman ones or magic and my argument would be equally valid. If we decide how we feel about things is the truth of them then we are deciding multiple competing truths are all truth. So we are deciding that God both does and does not exist. I could find probably as many people say they feel better without God as you could find saying they feel better with.

Incidentally I'm a believer in Gods as concepts just not as personages who judge and condemn and decide the fate of people. By your own admission God causes everything including the evil in men. So God judges himself really and any hell waiting for us will be where we ultimately meet him. :shrug:
 

Arctic Hysteria

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Let's not refer to things as if they were facts, when they are only what you're told or what you've read, with a giant touch of personal interpretation.

 

Totenkindly

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Living much of my life in American evangelism and fundamentalism which views evolution as anathema to faith, I was kind of surprised when my European Christian friends had a different take. And in that light, I don't think this most recent Pope's comments are that big a deal.

Since the publication of Charles Darwin's On the Origin of Species in 1859, the attitude of the Catholic Church on the theory of evolution has slowly been refined. Early contributions to the development of evolutionary theory were made by Catholic scientists such as Jean-Baptiste Lamarck and the Augustinian monk Gregor Mendel. For nearly a century, the papacy offered no authoritative pronouncement on Darwin's theories. In the 1950 encyclical Humani generis, Pope Pius XII confirmed that there is no intrinsic conflict between Christianity and the theory of evolution, provided that Christians believe that the individual soul is a direct creation by God and not the product of purely material forces.[1] Today, the Church supports theistic evolution(ism), also known as evolutionary creation,[2] although Catholics are free not to believe in any part of evolutionary theory...

Catholic Church and evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Tellenbach

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If it's important enough and if there is a God, he'll let you know.
 

Beorn

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Living much of my life in American evangelism and fundamentalism which views evolution as anathema to faith, I was kind of surprised when my European Christian friends had a different take. And in that light, I don't think this most recent Pope's comments are that big a deal.

Catholic Church and evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Fun fact: Arguably the founder of modern american fundamentalism, John Gresham Machen, held nuanced views on evolution and refused William Jennings Bryan's offer to testify at the Scopes trial.
 

Totenkindly

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.... getting back to the Flood briefly, my assessment is that it's likely there was a local flood of huge significance (since it is reflected in various cultural myth/storytelling), but the evidence isn't there to support global flooding and seems physically unlikely due to all the constraints of ark-creation + acquiring and keeping that variety of animals in a fairly isolated environment.

[Even Aronofsky tried to deal with this in "Noah," he actually put all the animals on the boat to sleep using some kind of inhaled drug, although I have no idea what that would have been that Noah could have actually concocted...]

I don't have an issue with the Bible or other texts taken on that level; I had to struggle out of what amounted to fundamentalist/literalist viewpoints myself as my starting point, it's all I really knew until I was an older teen. I've spent a lot of time as an adult to try to reconsider some kind of most-probable "middle road" while resisting pressure from the extremes.

Fun fact: Arguably the founder of modern american fundamentalism, John Gresham Machen, held nuanced views on evolution and refused William Jennings Bryan's offer to testify at the Scopes trial.

Thanks. I just read a little about of him and he looks refreshingly complex -- I need to read more. Random fact, turns out he is buried right here in Baltimore as well, near where I83 dumps into the inner harbor area.
 

GhostProjection

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Maybe the religious books were written to control people and their way of thinking. Like the books are already telling you how you should live but contradicts itself by saying you should have free will but how? When something or someone is telling you how you should live your life and telling you what to do. Is it just necessary guidance or something more? All religious books form from some sort of truth but are exaggerated. Then some people later on start to question it because life style changes. Don't you think that maybe humans themselves just made it all up? Created stories from reality. Rulers that wanted people to obey the rules or rulers that were evil and selfish that wanted control. Either way none of us are going to ever know the truth. It's an endless mystery. If your broaden your thinking and think about how space was created and who created this and this if this created this then who created that. It's just endless pondering and you won't get anywhere. I must apologize for my rambling HAHA
 

Lark

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I think it is true that God does and doesnt exist, it all depends upon what is meant, definition matters and is difficult in these matters.

If that sounds like God, or more accurately speaking, religion, is a moving target to any athiests reading that then I'd say sure, maybe that is the case, religion and atheism both are always going to exist as long as people do.

Does God exist? Is often a "stand in" question, beneath it or behind it there's a million other questions, the real ones, like whether or not there are consequences, whether or not its necessary to obey your conscience, whether or not its necessary to live a moral life and what that is or if you think that the past and the traditions it bequeths to the present matters or not. Things like that. People are used to thinking about these things too superficially. The internet is the shallows.
 

93JC

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This is the thread that never ends,
It just goes on and on my friends.
Some people started replying to it, not knowing what it was,
And they'll continue replying to it forever just because...
 
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