• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Can religious people be genuinely decent?

Daenera

Rogue heart
Joined
Mar 10, 2013
Messages
356
Do religious people - particularly belonging to religions of moral dogma - genuinely care about others well being?

Some do. Some don't. Though I would argue that everyone has at least few people who he cares about and that implies that they genuinely care about their well-being.

Or are they simply acting out of their own (Imagined) self interest (Scoring points for their afterlife game)?

What do you think about religious people who don't believe in an afterlife: why do they care about those things as the well being of others?(if they do,if they don't what do you think might be the real reason they believe in God?)

How can you know?

It's debatable if we can know anyone's true intentions (even our own) but IMO if there is something that can be a good indicator of the sincerity of someone's beliefs and the intentions behind them and that is doubt: that is leaving room for doubt and openness to discuss your beliefs.(this actually can be said about all people regardless of what they believe in, if they're religious or not) There is always a chance that our beliefs might be wrong and that by upholding those beliefs and acting in accordance with them we are hurting others instead of forming a loving relationship with others (which is something every religion preaches).
On the other hand absolute certainty in religious beliefs it's what can make even things like killing other people for your cause justifiable.
Also almost anyone who claims to know something with such certainty is probably trying to sell you something be it an idea or a specific thing.

How can they?

Not sure they can. Not sure any of us can. There is where belief kicks in. Nobody or most people don't believe they're bad or evil, their intentions seem truthful to them(do you think for example that suicide bombers have doubts about what they are doing might be wrong or perceive themselves as bad people:not likely, that's one example of a form that absolute conviction in something might result in). Again this is why I believe if anything can indicate sincerity in someone's belief that thing is having some doubt alongside with it.
 

Daenera

Rogue heart
Joined
Mar 10, 2013
Messages
356
for followers of jesus God doesn't really reward or accept our actions if we are not doing things from a place of love for others. note especially verse 3 below. so, if someone is a christian martyr but their actions weren't done out of love (i.e. whatever caused them to be persecuted) God is not impressed. if that isn't a high standard of love i don't know what is. also, the very first of the 10 commandments is basically "love God and love others". it's all about love but it ain't easy. personally, i don't know any followers of jesus who do good things for the rewards they may receive in heaven. they are doing good because they are trying to love God and love others as well as they know how. do lots of people of all faiths screw up? yes, definitely. and...one doesn't need to be a person of faith to screw up. ;)



eta: i agree that the question is quite flawed. why do you assume people without religion can have unselfish motives? i find that rather specious.

This is a great post but I have a question: what if you do have love and your actions are guided by love but you don't believe in God? It's off to hell as well if I recall correctly. :puppy_dog_eyes:
 

skylights

i love
Joined
Jul 6, 2010
Messages
7,756
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
I am not usually much one for church, but I went to the service where my dad plays music yesterday, and after he played, I braced myself for the sermon. It was some passage about weeds amongst the good oats and how at the harvest the reaper will burn the weeds and gather the oats into his house. I was all, oh great, here comes fire and brimstone. Turns out the pastor took it in the direction of it's only God's right to judge weed from oats and maybe God has a plan for turning the weeds into oats, and it's not our right or our duty to judge others but to look at them with heavenly eyes of grace and acceptance and kindness and to leave judgment to God in God's own time. I was like, okay, dude. I can get on board with that.

Moral being, yeah, I think there are decent religious people. I see religion as pretty secondary to whether someone is a decent person or not. You will know if someone is decent if they treat others respectfully. If not then I guess like pastor dude says then we should try to be kind and patient and encourage them to be more at peace with themself and the world. I believe that there is plenty of capacity for good inside everyone.
 

21%

You have a choice!
Joined
May 15, 2009
Messages
3,224
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
I think there are genuinely kind people, and there are religious people. Sometimes the two groups intersect.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,187
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
This is a great post but I have a question: what if you do have love and your actions are guided by love but you don't believe in God? It's off to hell as well if I recall correctly. :puppy_dog_eyes:

Depends on the religion; but yes, that's one of the conflict points. People who believe that would just say that ultimately if your love is not driven by the version of God they believe in, then all your actions might look like love but are still selfish/empty. :shrug:


...To answer the OP question, my answer is pretty much what many others have said: Yes, there are many decent religious people out there. Take people on their own merits, not based on whether or not they are religious or adhere to a specific religious tradition.
 

Mane

Permabanned
Joined
Jul 2, 2014
Messages
828
Um, how about the law?

How do I know that the real reason you don't go around killing people isn't just that you're afraid you'll go to jail?

Exactly - you don't - unless there are situations in which i could get away with it and still choose not too. In the mean time, you can know that if i am helping someone without any legal benefits for doing so, or choose to avoid causing harms which are within legal limits (Hurting someone's feelings for example), then I am not legally motivated to do so.

You need to cut them some slack. You shouldn't make assumptions about someone's morality based on their religiosity (or lack thereof). Unless you have genuine reasons to question someone's motives for acts of kindness, it's only fair to give them the benefit of the doubt.

I shouldn't reach conclusions on people's internal workings according to the beliefs which they claim to guide their internal process? I suppose I should avoid reaching conclusions about their thoughts and feelings based on their expressed thoughts and feelings?
 

Qre:us

New member
Joined
Nov 21, 2008
Messages
4,890
An atheist doesn't necessary have a persistent all-encompassing ulterior motive for being good - a religious person does.

If the only thing keeping you from becoming a cruel being, a murderer, a rapist, is the motivation to believe in god, then I hope for all our sake that you never stop believing in god.
 

Kullervo

Permabanned
Joined
May 15, 2014
Messages
3,298
MBTI Type
N/A
If the only thing keeping you from becoming a cruel being, a murderer, a rapist, is the motivation to believe in god, then I hope for all our sake that you never stop believing in god.

If that is the only reason someone doesn't go out on a killing spree then they need psychological help.
 

Azure Flame

Permabanned
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Messages
2,317
MBTI Type
ESTP
Enneagram
8w7
Do religious people - particularly belonging to religions of moral dogma - genuinely care about others well being? Or are they simply acting out of their own (Imagined) self interest (Scoring points for their afterlife game)? How can you know? How can they? Are there any situations in which acting for the benefit of others would not be in their own spiritual interest?

Disclaimer: I don't mean simply in action, but in terms of intent.

I believe you are asking if true altruism is possible. The answer is yes, but only by permitting the infinite creator of the universe to act through you by allowing your cup to overflow (Imagine a cup overflowing with liquid life force). A truly altruistic person will never know he is altruistic. He or she enlivens all of those around them without necessarily knowing that that is what that person is doing.

But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, -Matthew 6:3

The truth is, peace will probably come to the middle east when everyone suddenly comes to the realization they believe in the same shit and are arguing over stupid trivialities. The book of truth (the holy bible) basically says, love your neighbor as yourself and do everything for the glory of god. Anytime someone argues about something being more important than that, you are to basically reject that person as an unholy person. Islam executes anyone who converts to christianity, which is ridiculous because the quran actually urges muslims to read the bible. Are their actions holy? Absolutely not. They are based in fear that their truth isn't actually the truth, and as their fear takes hold over them they destroy other humans and impose their fear on others so that their beliefs cannot be challenged. The punchline is, their fear is causing them to defy the very fundamental law that most if not all religions try to abide by. Love.

But avoid foolish disputes, geneologies, contentions, and strivings about the law, for they are unprofitable and useless. Reject a divisive man after the first or second admonition - Titus 3:9
 

inventor

New member
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
88
MBTI Type
INFX
Enneagram
4
I really hope the op is joking.

Anyway I used to be religious, and am now not. When I was religious I was nice to people because I want people to be happy. I genuinely cared about people (still do). It wasn't because if god, god or not I still want people to be happy, and without suffering. Now that I am without religion I'm basically still the same, just minus the religious views I used to have.
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
the very fundamental law that most if not all religions try to abide by. Love.

In most arguments with the religious they bring out their trump card called love.

Love for the religious is part of their propaganda game. It is meant to win the game and silence the sceptics.

And love is an effective propaganda move because the religious believe it is answerable.

So don't you dare answer back.
 

Mane

Permabanned
Joined
Jul 2, 2014
Messages
828
You know, this shouldn't be a difficult riddle to solve: Are there any situations in which a religious person Believing in a god which rewards good actions for the benefits of others in the afterlife can act for the benefit of others without believing they would benefit themselves in their own afterlife in the process?
 

PeaceBaby

reborn
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
5,950
MBTI Type
N/A
Enneagram
N/A
You know, this shouldn't be a difficult riddle to solve: Are there any situations in which a religious person Believing in a god which rewards good actions for the benefits of others in the afterlife can act for the benefit of others without believing they would benefit themselves in their own afterlife in the process?

Well, no. The belief of reward is sufficient to be at least a subconscious factor. The action could even be 99% true selfless altruism, but the knowledge of adding something to the positive karma pile would still get in there.

Why are you asking?
 

DiscoBiscuit

Meat Tornado
Joined
Apr 13, 2009
Messages
14,794
Enneagram
8w9
Do religious people - particularly belonging to religions of moral dogma - genuinely care about others well being? Or are they simply acting out of their own (Imagined) self interest (Scoring points for their afterlife game)? How can you know? How can they? Are there any situations in which acting for the benefit of others would not be in their own spiritual interest?

Disclaimer: I don't mean simply in action, but in terms of intent.

Can non religious people be genuinely decent?

The thread premise on it face assumes the religious are less likely to be decent.
 

Mane

Permabanned
Joined
Jul 2, 2014
Messages
828
Well, no. The belief of reward is sufficient to be at least a subconscious factor. The action could even be 99% true selfless altruism, but the knowledge of adding something to the positive karma pile would still get in there.

Why are you asking?

Because it's interesting:
On the surface, my gut reaction would normally be to agree with everyone here: Ofcourse they can be.
But when you look at the core mechanic, the actual opportunity to do so is inherently unavailable, and as such, unknowable.
If the we assume that they can be altruistic, as most people here seem to do, then the interesting question becomes how.
 
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
Messages
2,770
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
7w8
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
What an odd question. OF COURSE THEY CAN BE.

And really, who gives a shit if they're trying to score Karma or Jesus points. As long as people are getting water and food.

And I'm no fan of religion, and have serious personal beefs with Christianity. But I'm not sure there's a religion that helps out more. Missionaries and TONS of money go into helping people. Helping people like, not die.

HOWEVER it's a bit scheming to me, because when someone brings near-death, starving people in Africa sandwiches and shelter, of COURSE they're going to be indoctrinated, and probably very willing. "Jesus is God? You have sandwich? Ok Jesus is God."

But I think having running water and a place to wash your hands other than the same place where you shit is probably a fair trade.





O1or5Cb.jpg
 
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
Messages
2,770
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
7w8
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Are there any situations in which a religious person Believing in a god which rewards good actions for the benefits of others in the afterlife can act for the benefit of others without believing they would benefit themselves in their own afterlife in the process?

What the hell did you just say.

If they believe in a god that rewards good actions, why would that NOT believe in a god that rewards good actions.
 

Azure Flame

Permabanned
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Messages
2,317
MBTI Type
ESTP
Enneagram
8w7
You know, this shouldn't be a difficult riddle to solve: Are there any situations in which a religious person Believing in a god which rewards good actions for the benefits of others in the afterlife can act for the benefit of others without believing they would benefit themselves in their own afterlife in the process?

A truly alruistic person is someone who doesn't know they're altruistic.

let not your left hand know what your right hand does - John 6:3
 

Avocado

Permabanned
Joined
Jun 28, 2013
Messages
3,794
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
7w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Do religious people - particularly belonging to religions of moral dogma - genuinely care about others well being? Or are they simply acting out of their own (Imagined) self interest (Scoring points for their afterlife game)? How can you know? How can they? Are there any situations in which acting for the benefit of others would not be in their own spiritual interest?

Disclaimer: I don't mean simply in action, but in terms of intent.

I know in the JW mind control cult, you aren't allowed to show kindness to the gays, members of other religions, or those who question SUPREME LEADER's place as the sole mouthpiece of God. You also must treat women as naturally inferior to men.

These are values I once held, but no longer do. I am free from religion and a much better person for it. Not all religion is bad, however. I frequently flirt with the idea of giving Unitarian Universalism a try, since they won't force me to believe in things I find irrational, but will still maybe help me attain a sense of the "spiritual."

I do not believe in the supernatural or magic.
 

Avocado

Permabanned
Joined
Jun 28, 2013
Messages
3,794
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
7w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
In most arguments with the religious they bring out their trump card called love.

Love for the religious is part of their propaganda game. It is meant to win the game and silence the sceptics.

And love is an effective propaganda move because the religious believe it is answerable.

So don't you dare answer back.

Good post.
 
Top