Cults

[Kullervo]

Excuse me, I need to go ask Lana if it's ok to keep talking to you.

You probably most def think Grateful Dead and Phish are cults then, eh, if you even include Bieber fever.

No doubt you have a better way to describe them.

 

[Thalassa]

No doubt you have a better way to describe them.

Oops sorry She said "no."

 

[Avocado]

The Watchtower Society was to never be questioned. SUPREME LEADER, "Judge" Franklin Rutherford, held the reins of the company and brutally punished then shunned anybody who questioned his authority. He claimed to be the only way to survive the impending apocalypse, and to separate yourself from any friends or family who spoke out against him or his right to rule. He coined the phrase "Independent thinking is the preferred tool of Satan!"

He was the second SUPREME LEADER, and the SUPREME LEADERS/CEOs who came after him were his children.

 

[Kasper]

Cults are not just "baby religions" or ones that haven't "taken off" yet. There is specific criteria required to be classed as a religious cult, a checklist with a certain number of markers required, governments do monitor these things as no one wants a doomsday cult massacre on their hands, some are dangerous, others simply deluded. It typically involves a revered cult leader although it is not an ironclad requirement, there is an element of isolation "us v the world", there is typically dependence by the followers on the cult either financially as they it manages their money, or through physical isolation as in a closed in compound (this is the scary one for potential doomsday cults), or some other emotional dependence such as separation from family if one were to leave as the cult is more important than family, JWs sure hit people hard with this one, if you leave you must be shunned.

I would expect that there are two ways cults start; as splinter organisations of existing religions seeking greater restrictions/control, or via a dynamic convincing leader starting their own movement.

As to why people join/why they are successful, well that depends entirely on what the cult is offering, the people who survived Jonestown talk about the sense of community, feeling as though they were living as one big family without fear or unmet needs until the Flavor aid, they were looking for utopia, I think this is what religion in general can offer to people who feel lonely and are searching for a place to belong, the more extreme the offer, the more the people searching are looking for that one simple answer to sort out everything in their life that isn't working. The outward appearance can be one of respectable community, fractures and hypocrisy are hard to see until you are within it, and when you are within it, you are ripe for manipulation. And of course: The simplest way get members is for existing members to have children, indoctrination is easy when you get em from birth, the successful cults therefore need to be sustainable in future generations.

 

[Tater]

1. cult members are told what they want to hear, making them feel good, which creates dependency
2. cult members reiterate their beliefs until the cult's environment becomes an echo chamber
3. cult members are given simple, faith-based reasons to continue believing in cult doctrine
4. cult members shame each other when they fall out of line
5. cult members silence dissent and snuff out alternative viewpoints
6. 1-5 frequently revolve around a leader who explicitly or implicitly claims to perfect, which provides an unattainable incentive

EDIT: 7. cult members are stripped of their former identities, making their purpose in life exclusive to cult activities

 

[prplchknz]

1. cult members are told what they want to hear, making them feel good, which creates dependency
2. cult members reiterate their beliefs until the cult's environment becomes an echo chamber
3. cult members are given simple, faith-based reasons to continue believing in cult doctrine
4. cult members shame each other when they fall out of line
5. cult members silence dissent and snuff out alternative viewpoints
6. 1-5 frequently revolve around a leader who explicitly or implicitly claims to perfect, which provides an unattainable incentive

I've learned you leave something like this whether cult or semi-cult don't tell the people they're idiots and that their beliefs make no sense quietly make your exit, they are so convinced their way is the only way, that you fight them and point out that you haven't been living that way and you're way happier they'll try to convince you that your life is gonna become miserable again or that you actually are but don't know it.

 

[Tater]

I've learned you leave something like this whether cult or semi-cult don't tell the people they're idiots and that their beliefs make no sense quietly make your exit, they are so convinced their way is the only way, that you fight them and point out that you haven't been living that way and you're way happier they'll try to convince you that your life is gonna become miserable again or that you actually are but don't know it.

people believe what they're predisposed to. personal attacks make people too defensive to listen. if you want to have a revolution, boycott the institution. when cult members see that someone else can function outside the trappings of the order, they'll have corporeal evidence to think about - sometimes it's more efficient to change others' minds not to even concern yourself with changing their minds, since closed-systems of belief function by vilifying protesters.

 

[prplchknz]

people believe what they're predisposed to. personal attacks make people too defensive to listen. if you want to have a revolution, boycott the institution. when cult members see that someone else can function outside the trappings of the order, they'll have corporeal evidence to think about - sometimes it's more efficient to change others' minds not to even concern yourself with changing their minds, since closed-systems of belief function by vilifying protesters.

that's exactly what I'm doing.

 

[Tater]

that's exactly what I'm doing.

what kind of cult are you part of?

 

[prplchknz]

what kind of cult are you part of?

it wasn't a true cult, that's why i said semi-cult. But essentially I was forced into aa because of a rough time in my life. I take full responsibility for my actions at this point that's not the point. I was there 2 years never sure if I was actually an alcoholic things just didn't line up for me so one night I decided to drink (I was going to question it my whole life, if I didn't). I had some beer didn't want to drink for a week after that. And my average now is to go out every other week with people and I don't sit there counting the days til i can drink.I also don't drive, and if I have to I have like 2 beers over 3-4 hours and just chill with the people and watch everyone else act like drunk idiots. THere's even been times where I've started to drink gotten less than half way through decided i didn't really want to and give it away. I'll buy wine and beer to enjoy one in front of a movie or with dinner and lot of times they just sit there for days in plain site. I'm actually happier and more productive overall since I left. And the whole time I was told if I drank I was gonna lose everything that I would be miserable. That wasn't the case in fact the opposite happened. The experience also reminded me why I left organized religion. Also I don't get so drunk I black out or throw up or pass out. Most of those people refuse to talk to me because I left. No skin off my back.

 

[Tater]

it wasn't a true cult, that's why i said semi-cult. But essentially I was forced into aa because of a rough time in my life. I take full responsibility for my actions at this point that's not the point. I was there 2 years never sure if I was actually an alcoholic things just didn't line up for me so one night I decided to drink (I was going to question it my whole life, if I didn't). I had some beer didn't want to drink for a week after that. And my average now is to go out every other week with people and I don't sit there counting the days til i can drink.I also don't drive, and if I have to I have like 2 beers over 3-4 hours and just chill with the people and watch everyone else act like drunk idiots. THere's even been times where I've started to drink gotten less than half way through decided i didn't really want to and give it away. I'll buy wine and beer to enjoy one in front of a movie or with dinner and lot of times they just sit there for days in plain site. I'm actually happier and more productive overall since I left. And the whole time I was told if I drank I was gonna lose everything that I would be miserable. That wasn't the case in fact the opposite happened. The experience also reminded me why I left organized religion. Also I don't get so drunk I black out or throw up or pass out. Most of those people refuse to talk to me because I left. No skin off my back.

a.a. may harbor some cult-like elements, but i suspect that your current habit of moderating your intake could have been influenced by your participation there.

 

[prplchknz]

a.a. may harbor some cult-like elements, but i suspect that your current habit of moderating your intake could have been influenced by your participation there.

It does harbor cult-like elements. I tried their way all I found was misery. If it works for the person great, but don't make claims that it's the only way. I've also realized it comes down to personal choice not some lame ass higher power. everyone there is choosing on their own will not to drink and if they idea that some invisible entity is helping them do so, more power to them.

 

[Tater]

It does harbor cult-like elements. I tried their way all I found was misery. If it works for the person great, but don't make claims that it's the only way. I've also realized it comes down to personal choice not some lame ass higher power. everyone there is choosing on their own will not to drink and if they idea that some invisible entity is helping them do so, more power to them.

people can obviously recover without a.a., but the central purpose of a.a. is to establish organized support groups so members can methodically transform their addictive impulses into devotion to something besides alcohol. that "thing", as long as it is outside your addiction, is of your choosing, be it science, art, or abstract concepts like freedom. as i understand it, a.a. tolerates pluralistic beliefs so long as its members adhere to the "12 step" procedure. you didn't experience that?

 

[prplchknz]

people can obviously recover without a.a., but the central purpose of a.a. is to establish organized support groups so members can methodically transform their addictive impulses into devotion to something besides alcohol. that "thing", as long as it is outside your addiction, is of your choosing, be it science, art, or abstract concepts like freedom. as i understand it, a.a. tolerates pluralistic beliefs so long as its members adhere to the "12 step" procedure. you didn't experience that?

The fact that I didn't agree with most of the steps. it's not about the beliefs it didn't work for me. this is why I'm so apprehensive about saying anything. I know I wasn't happy. It pisses me off that people try to convince me that it wasn't the case. a lot of the people there are hypocrites.

I have not once gone up to someone in aa and told them I think the program is crap. I do believe for some people it works. So i really don't appreciate me sharing my experience and why I left being met with criticism and being told I'm wrong. I know what I experienced. it comes across as condescending.

 

[Tater]

The fact that I didn't agree with most of the steps. it's not about the beliefs it didn't work for me. this is why I'm so apprehensive about saying anything. I know I wasn't happy. It pisses me off that people try to convince me that it wasn't the case. a lot of the people there are hypocrites.

i'm sorry to hear that.

 

[prplchknz]

i'm sorry to hear that.

I'm not, it just sucks that I met some really cool people in the rooms but I no longer talk to them, because I decided to leave. And maybe if I continue down this path and they see that me leaving aa =/= death of me. right now me trying to convince people from the rooms that I made the best decision for myself and personal happiness is not high up on a list of things to accomplish.

 

[Tater]

I'm not, it just sucks that I met some really cool people in the rooms but I no longer talk to them, because I decided to leave. And maybe if I continue down this path and they see that me leaving aa =/= death of me. right now me trying to convince people from the rooms that I made the best decision for myself and personal happiness is not high up on a list of things to accomplish.

who knows? maybe you'll see them in the future.

 

[prplchknz]

who knows? maybe you'll see them in the future.

maybe I have been honest with them though. and that's all i can do at this point.

 

[Mole]

AA and SOS

The fact that I didn't agree with most of the steps. it's not about the beliefs it didn't work for me. this is why I'm so apprehensive about saying anything. I know I wasn't happy. It pisses me off that people try to convince me that it wasn't the case. a lot of the people there are hypocrites.

I have not once gone up to someone in aa and told them I think the program is crap. I do believe for some people it works. So i really don't appreciate me sharing my experience and why I left being met with criticism and being told I'm wrong. I know what I experienced. it comes across as condescending.

There is an alternative to AA that does not require a belief in a supernatural being. And that is SOS Sobriety, click on Addiction - Non 12 Step - Support Group - Index

So it is not AA or nothing, it is AA or SOS Sobriety.

 

[prplchknz]

There is an alternative to AA that does not require a belief in a supernatural being. And that is SOS Sobriety, click on Addiction - Non 12 Step - Support Group - Index

So it is not AA or nothing, it is AA or SOS Sobriety.

did you not read my first post about it?

it wasn't a true cult, that's why i said semi-cult. But essentially I was forced into aa because of a rough time in my life. I take full responsibility for my actions at this point that's not the point. I was there 2 years never sure if I was actually an alcoholic things just didn't line up for me so one night I decided to drink (I was going to question it my whole life, if I didn't). I had some beer didn't want to drink for a week after that. And my average now is to go out every other week with people and I don't sit there counting the days til i can drink.I also don't drive, and if I have to I have like 2 beers over 3-4 hours and just chill with the people and watch everyone else act like drunk idiots. THere's even been times where I've started to drink gotten less than half way through decided i didn't really want to and give it away. I'll buy wine and beer to enjoy one in front of a movie or with dinner and lot of times they just sit there for days in plain site. I'm actually happier and more productive overall since I left. And the whole time I was told if I drank I was gonna lose everything that I would be miserable. That wasn't the case in fact the opposite happened. The experience also reminded me why I left organized religion. Also I don't get so drunk I black out or throw up or pass out. Most of those people refuse to talk to me because I left. No skin off my back.