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Christianity

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If there's one way to get a thread rolling, it's title it "Christianity."

Anyone that says that there definitely is or is not a god, is an idiot. You can't prove that. Like many have mentioned, it's a faith on both sides. I prefer the "I don't know" religion.

Humans are far too stupid to know. We're more or less chimpanzees that have invented a variety of very advanced sticks.

Not to say that ritual and prayer, of any religion or personal belief, can't be helpful.

Prayer can be very good for the person praying. And if through prayer, that person helps someone else, it can be good for others too. "I'll be praying for you" seems more harmful than helpful. It's like, "Well it's in God's hands now! My work here is done." It can be a nice sentiment though.

I once heard the phrase "Prayer Warriors" and I thought, those must be the wussiest warriors and the face of the planet.

The best part of Christianity in many countries is not the religion itself, but the community that revolves around it. The people, the friendships.
 

Totenkindly

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The best part of Christianity in many countries is not the religion itself, but the community that revolves around it. The people, the friendships.

I think that's where a lot of the churches suceed and where I felt the most loss when I left church. A potential weakness is that some churches demand a homogeneous group (you're expected to hold certain political and theological beliefs or you can find yourself marginalized), but basically you can rest assured that if you need someone to watch your kids, or you need money, or a family member is in the hospital and you need food/basic needs looked after, well, the church often really does step in. You also have community events that you can attend and have that support network in place, so you never have to spend a holiday alone. Those benefits are more communal than nature.

I think if you're someone who also is part of the homogeneous majority, you can develop some very meaningful relationships. For me, I never really fit in anyway, so I never really had close relationships in the church; I found those people outside, since they were more accepting of my differences from the standard views and I could be myself / be more open.
 

Typh0n

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Its ironic how today, Christians say things like "faith does not require proof", and it is accepted as a reality of Christianity that faith exists without proof.

In the middle ages, in Europe, however, "proof" that God existed abounded, which is why Galilieo was persecuted, scientists making claims discounting people's supposed proofs in God were persecuted.

Now that every "proof" the church has had has been discounted("how could the universe exist without a 'prime motor'" - what a crock), they say that faith in the invisible is enough.

Not trying to offend anyone's beliefs as I know there are some Christians on the board but I just wanted to say that to remind everyone that faith hasnt always been the only "trump card" Christians have had.
 

wildflower

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since debating this stuff is unproductive i just want to respond to a couple things.

Rather, I think the evidence appears when you're already a believer.

i've heard nonchristians say things like this before and i think it is partly true and partly untrue. i have found when people talk about their stories of coming to faith (conversion stories) many people, myself included, did not go looking for God but God just showed up in their lives be it a small event, a series of events or a big event. i thought church was a pointless, waste of time when God blindsided me. yes, it's easier to accept faith in God if a person isn't closed off and hasn't already made up their mind, but i've even known of stories of people like that who have become believers despite strong resistance. so, it helps if a person is open but it wouldn't make sense when talking about someone coming to faith in christ to say 'they already believed the bible before reading it' (i've heard that one too) or believed in jesus before having an experience or finding evidence, etc.. all that happens after one has become a believer is great and yes confirms one's faith but that is a bit different from people who came to faith after experiencing God or finding evidence or whatever. for the most part those are two separate things kind of like B.C. and A.D.

Its ironic how today, Christians say things like "faith does not require proof", and it is accepted as a reality of Christianity that faith exists without proof.

i think it is more that we realize there is no 100% proof or certainty. i think most people believe based on something or a series of somethings such as answered prayer, finding the claims of the bible to be true, the inner witness, seeing a loved one's life completely changed after becoming a believer, witnessing a healing, hearing from God, experiencing love from other believers that they realize isn't just human love, etc. it isn't blind faith by any means. that would be quite foolish if you ask me and i've yet to meet a believer who came to faith in God out of blind faith. every christian i've ever known has a story of how they came to faith, meaning particular events happened in their life, even if was as simple as they saw their parents' faith and lives and eventually believed it to be true themselves.
 

wildflower

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[MENTION=20474]OptoGypsy[/MENTION], i think if you really want to check out christianity it is good at some point to go to a church gathering as it really is something you live out in community. it looks as if you might live in my town. if that is so and you'd like to check out probably the coolest "church" around send me a PM. i am part of a street outreach and we do church with the prostitutes, homeless, addicts, etc.. we meet in a parking lot on a weeknight in the town with the famous sign. no seating but lots of hanging out and free pizza. it's a fun crowd and there is a sermon too. actually, tomorrow is when we do our laundry night where the laundromat is open and we offer free laundry services for anyone in the community. that is the night visitors can come check out the ministry so if you are game let me know as it happens once a month. you can even bring your laundry if you like.
 

OptoGypsy

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If there's one way to get a thread rolling, it's title it "Christianity."

Anyone that says that there definitely is or is not a god, is an idiot. You can't prove that. Like many have mentioned, it's a faith on both sides. I prefer the "I don't know" religion.

Humans are far too stupid to know. We're more or less chimpanzees that have invented a variety of very advanced sticks.

Not to say that ritual and prayer, of any religion or personal belief, can't be helpful.

Prayer can be very good for the person praying. And if through prayer, that person helps someone else, it can be good for others too. "I'll be praying for you" seems more harmful than helpful. It's like, "Well it's in God's hands now! My work here is done." It can be a nice sentiment though.

I once heard the phrase "Prayer Warriors" and I thought, those must be the wussiest warriors and the face of the planet.

The best part of Christianity in many countries is not the religion itself, but the community that revolves around it. The people, the friendships.

I completely agree with you that their is no way we can know... God supposedly gave us a brain to use and to pray instead of using it is stupid. Besides everything is going to happen based of a Gods divine plan so if the God wants the prayer warriors to lose they will lose and they will lose in the pussiest way possible.

The people/friendships will be the reason I take the title of 'christian'
[MENTION=7]Jennifer[/MENTION] I agree with you on that it is important to be with others that believe in the same ideals that you believe in and so far I have been lucky that all the Christians that are surrounding me presently are huge fans of Free-Thought and that I'm an anarchist
 

Hive

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i've heard nonchristians say things like this before and i think it is partly true and partly untrue. i have found when people talk about their stories of coming to faith (conversion stories) many people, myself included, did not go looking for God but God just showed up in their lives be it a small event, a series of events or a big event. i thought church was a pointless, waste of time when God blindsided me. yes, it's easier to accept faith in God if a person isn't closed off and hasn't already made up their mind, but i've even known of stories of people like that who have become believers despite strong resistance. so, it helps if a person is open but it wouldn't make sense when talking about someone coming to faith in christ to say 'they already believed the bible before reading it' (i've heard that one too) or believed in jesus before having an experience or finding evidence, etc.. all that happens after one has become a believer is great and yes confirms one's faith but that is a bit different from people who came to faith after experiencing God or finding evidence or whatever. for the most part those are two separate things kind of like B.C. and A.D.
Perhaps. My main point is that you can't produce evidence for the existence of God. It's more like you interpret your own experience and reach the conclusion that God exists. But you can't prove it.
 

OptoGypsy

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Perhaps. My main point is that evidence for God is not something you can produce. It's more like you interpret your own experience and reach the conclusion that God exists. But you can't prove it.

Hive is right, Christianity is simply another faith based machine that has been created into one huge easy to get into Frat. Christ has great philosophies and teachings, being Christ-Like/Christian is another lifestyle
 

Mole

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The fascinating thing about Christianity is that its founder was not a Christian. Yes, the very founder of Christianity was a Jew who followed the religion of Judaism. So it was the later followers of this Jew who created Christianity. And what chutzpah, they even went as far as to blame the torture and death of this Jew on the Jews themselves.
 

OptoGypsy

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The fascinating thing about Christianity is that its founder was not a Christian. Yes, the very founder of Christianity was a Jew who followed the religion of Judaism. So it was the later followers of this Jew who created Christianity. And what chutzpah, they even went as far as to blame the torture and death of this Jew on the Jews themselves.

Instead of the Romans? The Pharisees are Jews and they started the movement that led to the crucifixion of Jesus of Nazarene.
 

wildflower

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my last post on this thread and i'll let you folks have the last word. :)

God supposedly gave us a brain to use and to pray instead of using it is stupid.
it's not an either/or it's a both/and. what you've written is a myth that a lot of people believe about the christian faith. granted there are some christians who are anti-intellectual. i won't dispute that and frankly they drive me nuts. also, read the story of king solomon in the old testament. it's in 2 chronicles 1. now don't take that passage and generalize to mean we always have to specifically ask God for knowledge about every minute detail of life. that would be frankly stupid. God has revealed all sorts of knowledge to believers and unbelievers in life generally and we are not to ignore that. the bible does not teach people to not use their brains rather it teaches people to lean on God's knowledge over our own say if there is a conflict between the two. think about it: if there really is an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving God don't you think that God would be just a wee bit smarter than you and so it might be wise to defer to that God's knowledge? ;) this absolutely doesn't mean we don't think and wrestle with scripture and philosophy and everything else. see folks like: c.s. lewis, bonhoeffer, barth, wesley, n.t. wright (he's the hot theologian right now) etc. etc. etc. in fact i i think those would be some great writers for you to read if you are interested.

Perhaps. My main point is that you can't produce evidence for the existence of God. It's more like you interpret your own experience and reach the conclusion that God exists. But you can't prove it.

a lot of it does depend on whether or not you believe the scriptures are true. if you don't yes it is going to be harder if what you want is physical evidence. if you do believe the scriptures then there is a huge piece of evidence right there. i've described a whole lot of other examples of evidence in my previous post to you, but no i can't wave my hand and make God appear. what kind of God would kow tow to that anyway? i can pray and i can ask and i've seen huge prayers answered that there is no way these things could have just happened by chance or whatever. yes, that is my experience and my interpretation of said experiences. here's an example. i was going to a week-long conference. i mentioned it to my good friend and she really wanted to also go but definitely didn't have the money. she figured out she would need $700. we prayed and within a week a couple, knowing absolutely nothing about this as we hadn't mentioned it to a soul, approached her and each handed her a check for $350 because they each believed God wanted them to do so. honestly, i was amazed and so was my friend. i don't know about you but no one has ever handed me money for even $20 out of the blue.

as for experience we all interpret our own experiences and reach conclusions. that is how life is done whether with spiritual or scientific things. scientists interpret their data and make the best conclusions they can with the evidence they have. so do people of faith. neither is 100% right all the time. have you read anything about the food wars lately and how now some are saying saturated fat is fine for your heart and even good for your health now? i think someone posted a thread about that on here. i've tried looking into it before and all the scientists are giving totally conflicting data and interpretations. scientists and theologians both do it. that is life!
 

DiscoBiscuit

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I can't prove God exists any more than you can prove he doesn't.

So why worry about it?
 

Mole

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Instead of the Romans? The Pharisees are Jews and they started the movement that led to the crucifixion of Jesus of Nazarene.

This is a furphy put around by the Christians. In fact Jesus was a Jewish Zealot who was put to death like many Jewish Zealots before him by the Romans.

Pontius Pilate would be no more influenced by the Jews than he would fly. Pontius Pilate was a brutal and experienced killer, who even Rome regarded as too brutal. Pontius would kill anyone who spoke against Rome, and this Jew was a Zealot, preaching revolution, Matthew 20:16 "So the last will be first, and the first will be last."

And as you recall, the Jewish Zealots succeeded in their revolution against Rome in 66 to 70 AD by violently driving the Romans out.
 

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This is a furphy put around by the Christians. In fact Jesus was a Jewish Zealot who was put to death like many Jewish Zealots before him by the Romans.

Pontius Pilate would be no more influenced by the Jews than he would fly. Pontius Pilate was a brutal and experienced killer, who even Rome regarded as too brutal. Pontius would kill anyone who spoke against Rome, and this Jew was a Zealot, preaching revolution, Matthew 20:16 "So the last will be first, and the first will be last."

And as you recall, the Jewish Zealots succeeded in their revolution against Rome in 66 to 70 AD by driving the Romans out.

Are the miracles a fake account? The disciples died for the idea of the revolution and not for the idea that he is God? In other words treating Jesus as God would be similar to treating Lenin or Che Guevara as God
 

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I can't prove God exists any more than you can prove he doesn't.

So why worry about it?

I'm surrounded by Christian zealots as peers so it's more in line of a social standing and using it as a tool of spreading word on life and humanity instead of treating it as a ticket to heaven.
 

Mole

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I can't prove God exists any more than you can prove he doesn't.

So why worry about it?

We become what we worship, so we become the kind of God we worship.

So rather than asking, does God exist, we might ask, what kind of God do I worship?

Naturally atheists are at a disadvantage here as they won't admit they worship any God and so they are flying blind.

When we marry we say, I thee worship, and as we become what we worship, we try to make a wise choice in marriage.
 

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a lot of it does depend on whether or not you believe the scriptures are true. if you don't yes it is going to be harder if what you want is physical evidence. if you do believe the scriptures then there is a huge piece of evidence right there.
You can't prove the scriptures are true though, so that'd just be circular reasoning, not evidence. "The written word of God confirms the existence of God."

i've described a whole lot of other examples of evidence in my previous post to you, but no i can't wave my hand and make God appear.
You mentioned you knew skeptics who converted, but you didn't provide examples of evidence.

what kind of God would kow tow to that anyway? i can pray and i can ask and i've seen huge prayers answered that there is no way these things could have just happened by chance or whatever. yes, that is my experience and my interpretation of said experiences. here's an example. i was going to a week-long conference. i mentioned it to my good friend and she really wanted to also go but definitely didn't have the money to go. she figured out she would need $700. we prayed and within a week a couple, knowing absolutely nothing about this as we hadn't mentioned it to a soul, approached her and each handed her a check for $350 because they each believed God wanted them to do so. honestly, i was amazed and so was my friend. i don't know about you but no one has ever handed me money for even $20 out of the blue.
It's an amazing story, if it's true. The problem is that for every prayer that supposedly gets answered, thousands are unanswered. And there certainly are a lot of people who God doesn't respond to praying for more important things than money for a trip.

But honestly, I think your friend was lying. Have you thought about how easy it'd be to claim God made sure she got the money to save her from another uncomfortable explanation?

as for experience we all interpret our own experiences and reach conclusions. that is how life is done whether with spiritual or scientific things. scientists interpret their data and make the best conclusions they can with the evidence they have. so do people of faith. neither is 100% right all the time. have you read anything about the food wars lately and how now some are saying saturated fat is fine for your heart and even good for your health now? i think someone posted a thread about that on here. i've tried looking into it before and all the scientists are giving totally conflicting data and interpretations. scientists and theologians both do it. that is life!
The difference is that we can evaluate how legitimate the claims of these scientists are by inspecting the data they present and the methods used to retrieve it.
If the methods of scientist A were more objective and scientifically sound than those of scientist B, then the data scientist A presents will be closer to the truth.

You can't review a person's religious experience like that, and a religious person can never produce proof of their god or gods through empirical testing. They have to subjectively interpret their experience as divinely induced and accept without evidence that it came from God. That's the leap of faith they're taking. That's what faith is - belief without evidence.
 
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OptoGypsy

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You can't prove the scriptures are true though, so that'd just be circular reasoning. "The written word of God confirms the existence of God."


You mentioned you knew skeptics who converted, but you didn't provide examples of evidence.


It's an amazing story, if it's true. The problem is that for every prayer that supposedly gets answered, thousands are unanswered. And there certainly are a lot of people praying for more important things than money for a trip who God doesn't respond to.

But honestly, I think your friend was lying. Have you thought about how easy it'd be to claim God made sure she got the money to save her from another uncomfortable explanation?


The difference is that we can evaluate how legitimate the claims of these scientists are by inspecting the data they present and the methods used to retrieve it.
If the methods of scientist A were more objective and scientifically sound than those of scientist B, then the data scientist A presents will be closer to the truth.

You can't review a person's religious experience like that, and a religious person can never produce evidence of their god or gods through empirical testing. They have to subjectively interpret their experience as divinely induced and accept without evidence that it came from God. That's the leap of faith they're taking. That's what faith is - belief without evidence.

I completely agree with you but as with my friend Yuriy a person can be a christian with out taking creationism, Jonah story etc as literal truth but the story of Jesus Christ is crazy, virgin birth (without God having sex with her unlike the Greek Myths) and resurrection unless you look at it as symbolism but then symbols are for the symbol minded. With that being said Christianity can be a great tool to reach people you wouldn't be able to reach otherwise especially in the U.S.A where the country claims to be 8?% Christian.
 

Coriolis

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Hive is right, Christianity is simply another faith based machine that has been created into one huge easy to get into Frat. Christ has great philosophies and teachings, being Christ-Like/Christian is another lifestyle
Christianity as an organized religion (or cluster of closely related religions) has certainly become that, though in the first generations after Jesus, it was much more varied and loosely organized. I know you asked about Christianity specifically, but the discussion has included God more broadly. Christianity is not the only set of teachings about God, and being a Christian is not the only way to pursue spirituality. Many of the criticisms of Christianity do not apply to other spiritual paths, though none will prove the existence of deity.

Are the miracles a fake account? The disciples died for the idea of the revolution and not for the idea that he is God? In other words treating Jesus as God would be similar to treating Lenin or Che Guevara as God
The Soviet state did treat Lenin as God, perhaps because they did not tolerate other deific expression. I sometimes use the example of Santa Claus. Yes, there was a real St Nicholas centuries ago who was bishop of Myra, and well known for his charity, especially toward young people. Generations later, an entire legend has been built up around him, with which we are all familiar. Similarly, there was a historical Jesus, who probably did many of the things attributed to him in the Bible: heal, teach, reach out to the marginalized, etc. Similarly, myths of the time involving virgin birth, underworld journey and resurrection came to be associated with him in an even more pervasive legend. But was Jesus God?

Some - and here I include non-Christians as well - believe there is god in each one of us. The Wiccans sometimes say to each other: "thou art God/thou art Goddess". The Bahai's speak of "manifestations of God", including Jesus, Buddha, Abraham, Mohammed, Baha'u'llah, and others. In their view, these people were not God, but were like mirrors, reflecting God more perfectly than the rest of humanity, who also reflect God, just not as well. Still others link the idea of "God" to the higher power in each of us, to natural forces, to the idea of a collective subconscious, etc.

If you ever come to believe in God, it will be not because someone laid out some sort of logical explanation, but rather because you had some personal experience which left you with that belief. Your idea of God will not be identical to anyone else's, but in its subjectivity will not be mutually exclusive with it either. Failure to understand this has fueled enormous religious strife through the years.
 

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Christianity as an organized religion (or cluster of closely related religions) has certainly become that, though in the first generations after Jesus, it was much more varied and loosely organized. I know you asked about Christianity specifically, but the discussion has included God more broadly. Christianity is not the only set of teachings about God, and being a Christian is not the only way to pursue spirituality. Many of the criticisms of Christianity do not apply to other spiritual paths, though none will prove the existence of deity.


The Soviet state did treat Lenin as God, perhaps because they did not tolerate other deific expression. I sometimes use the example of Santa Claus. Yes, there was a real St Nicholas centuries ago who was bishop of Myra, and well known for his charity, especially toward young people. Generations later, an entire legend has been built up around him, with which we are all familiar. Similarly, there was a historical Jesus, who probably did many of the things attributed to him in the Bible: heal, teach, reach out to the marginalized, etc. Similarly, myths of the time involving virgin birth, underworld journey and resurrection came to be associated with him in an even more pervasive legend. But was Jesus God?

Some - and here I include non-Christians as well - believe there is god in each one of us. The Wiccans sometimes say to each other: "thou art God/thou art Goddess". The Bahai's speak of "manifestations of God", including Jesus, Buddha, Abraham, Mohammed, Baha'u'llah, and others. In their view, these people were not God, but were like mirrors, reflecting God more perfectly than the rest of humanity, who also reflect God, just not as well. Still others link the idea of "God" to the higher power in each of us, to natural forces, to the idea of a collective subconscious, etc.

If you ever come to believe in God, it will be not because someone laid out some sort of logical explanation, but rather because you had some personal experience which left you with that belief. Your idea of God will not be identical to anyone else's, but in its subjectivity will not be mutually exclusive with it either. Failure to understand this has fueled enormous religious strife through the years.

Yup on the last part it's a big reasons why there are so many different branches in each religion. Religion is subjective and that is the miracle of it but we do live in an SJ world :( and believing in a God as a logical thing is like believing in the Easter Bunny

I enjoyed reading your comparison to St.Nicholas :)
 
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