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Do you adhere to the value of 'harm none'?

Amargith

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I'm curious to see how universal this value is and what it means to people from different backgrounds and types. So do you adhere to it? Why or why not? And what does it encompass for you? How important is it to you? What drives it?

Oh and it would be interesting to state your type first, and then answer, I think.


As for me:

ENFP

I live and breathe this. Suffering is something I cannot abide to see and do nothing about - be it another human being, or any other living being. I don't watch the news for a reason and I'm part of several charities to do what I can. If I'm aware that I might've hurt someone - however minor - I feel immensely guilty, even if a part of me rebels and tells me 'they had it coming'. I feel everyone has the right to be themselves and not be punished or taken advantage of it or be exploited by others for it - that includes animals and more. Free choice and the pain of having that taken already makes me rage, however small. On the other end of the scale is deliberate torture of another living being - something that I just cannot fathom.
 

21%

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Yes and no.

Yes, in that I get extremely angry when I see injustice -- violence against the weak, exploitation. If someone hurts children or animals, they will suffer my wrath.

But...

No, in that for me this "no harm" rule isn't universal. Some people just don't deserve to live -- and if they are bad people, I have no qualms with 'harming' them, which for me means something like 'remove them from society by whatever means'. I know in the grand scheme of things, who are we to judge? In a perfect world we will be able to heal everything with love and patience, but the world is not perfect, and it will be better off without some people. Of course, if there's a practical way to stop them from hurting other people and hopefully reform them, I will fully support that. But if there's the choice of 'harming' one bad person to save innocent people, I don't have any problems with that (if it IS really for the greater good), like if I can snipe someone who is about to detonate a bomb that will blow up a city I will do it in a blink.

I noticed that my INFP seems to hold "no harm under any circumstances" as an ideal more than I do. He was a bit taken aback when I once said that I had no problems killing people who are going to kill people I love -- he thought it was a bit extreme. But when it comes to it, I will get my hands dirty. I'll accept the consequences. My ISFJ mom is also like this -- in that she says she can kill people if they are really bad people. It's not about exacting punishment. It's not revenge. It's just so that they will not continue to hurt people.

Just saw on the news that 3 kids died from a bomb attack so I'm really angry
 

Nicodemus

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I adhere to the Do-what-I-think-is-right principle, which is a quasi-casuist approach to morality. My inner book of rules is too complex and convoluted to be synthesized into a handful of simple principles. Nevertheless, it is this book that I follow. But since it is always with me, and since I trust my ability to properly grasp a situation posing a moral decision, I also trust that I can make the right decision in a rather ad-hoc fashion.

Obviously, there are situations in which harming others is justified.
 

five sounds

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Sometimes harm is inevitable or even necessary. I try to minimize it, but I won't let it get in the way of doing the right thing. Myself included. People get hurt in life. If trying to prevent that were my main goal, I'd be spinning my wheels and not doing anything for myself or with any other purpose.
 

Amargith

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I fear i may have caused a more polarising response than I intended by sharing my own pov right off the bat.

I really did mean to just do a data intake of what people consider 'harm none' and what value they adhere to the principle, and for my own contribution to be just that... a data point and a contribution.
 

kyuuei

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I can't say I live this at all.

I do try to minimize the amount of harm I do.. but I am selfish, and entitled, and a sucker for convenience. I do a lot of unnecessary harm for these principles alone.

Yet, I do believe it has a strong purpose and indication in society.. I subscribe to it, and I think of the principle often. I use it to weigh a lot of my decisions in dealing with others in respect to myself.. "Is it hurting anyone, or me, that they're doing this? No? .. Meh.. it's fine then."

I struggle with this more in the sense of people harming themselves--my definition of what harm is includes the self, and what is harmful and helpful is different to me than to others.. What I think is unhealthy for someone is perfectly normal sounding to another.
(To give a small example.. I find it extremely unhealthy and creepy that someone would consider others, even close people, "objects" and tools to get jobs done.. versus having a deeper connection to someone in comparison to a hammer or swiss army knife. Yet, another forum member immediately came to the defense. 'No, Kyu, this is perfectly normal for some, and not at all creepy.' Yes, it's still absolutely creepy to me.. extremely unhealthy mental status.. but how much that is actually harmful and in need of repair? it's up in the air.. I'm unsure, as I only know what I can empathize with and rationalize.. and it just doesn't make sense at all to me, emotionally or logically, on a small local or a larger global scale to refer to all humans as objects and to treat them as such.)
 

Amargith

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I can't say I live this at all.

I do try to minimize the amount of harm I do.. but I am selfish, and entitled, and a sucker for convenience. I do a lot of unnecessary harm for these principles alone.

At the same time, I've seen you champion for justice when socially unjust situations were being discussed. I've seen you also uphold the principle of 'harming others with your actions isn't right'. I guess I'm wondering where the line goes, to what extent that is true for you and where that drive comes from
 

kyuuei

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At the same time, I've seen you champion for justice when socially unjust situations were being discussed. I've seen you also uphold the principle of 'harming others with your actions isn't right'. I guess I'm wondering where the line goes, to what extent that is true for you and where that drive comes from

Right. I fall short the same way I feel Christians feel they fall short in the eyes of their God. Sticking and clinging to the principle despite failing it because the principle is not flawed--it is I who is flawed.

Just because something is not attainable does not mean it is not worth reaching for. Where I draw the line? I have no idea.. It's vague, and changing with time and experience. What I felt was not important 2 years ago is today. Today I feel like consumerism is more harmful than many things, and I would have never given 2 thoughts to it before. I feel as if material possessions in excess are harmful now based on my life experience--yet, where to draw that line I am still working diligently on. It's a vague thing that needs constant attention and analyzing.
 

kyuuei

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At the same time, I've seen you champion for justice when socially unjust situations were being discussed. I've seen you also uphold the principle of 'harming others with your actions isn't right'. I guess I'm wondering where the line goes, to what extent that is true for you and where that drive comes from

Right. I fall short the same way I feel Christians feel they fall short in the eyes of their God. Sticking and clinging to the principle despite failing it because the principle is not flawed--it is I who is flawed.

Just because something is not attainable does not mean it is not worth reaching for. Where I draw the line? I have no idea.. It's vague, and changing with time and experience. What I felt was not important 2 years ago is today. Today I feel like consumerism is more harmful than many things, and I would have never given 2 thoughts to it before. I feel as if material possessions in excess are harmful now based on my life experience--yet, where to draw that line I am still working diligently on. It's a vague thing that needs constant attention and analyzing.
 

Honor

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Amargith said:
If I'm aware that I might've hurt someone - however minor - I feel immensely guilty, even if a part of me rebels and tells me 'they had it coming'. I feel everyone has the right to be themselves and not be punished or taken advantage of it or be exploited by others for it - that includes animals and more.

Amar, my default orientation toward the world is not just *do no harm* but *try to leave people in better shape than you found them, even if it's just a simple interaction*. So, kind of alleviate the wrongdoing of others. Of course, if I'm tired or cranky, I may not have the energy reserve to do that for every person I meet, but I do try to live as much of my life as possible that way.

However, when I run into someone who harms me emotionally, psychologically, or in whatever way (WITH MALICIOUS INTENT), I suspend that rule. In the name of protecting myself - or anyone I loved, I would harm someone, even using deadly force. If you act in such a way to intentionally cause me distress, then I will return the favor.
 

tinker683

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I'd say I try as best I can.

But sometimes it's unavoidable. Cutting out people in my life to whom I am a benefit to them and they harmful to me, evicting tenants who didn't pay their rent for my job...I'd love it if I didn't have to do any of these things but I have actually discovered that more often than not I'm only one capable enough to do it.

I don't know if that makes me strong...or just very hardened as a person. I don't know. I see benefits to this situation...but I also feel like I've given away a piece of my soul to get to this place...
 

Qlip

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In spirit, yes. In reality I support an industry that has a vested interest in keeping poor countries poor. Part of my salary goes to bombing civilians by drone in the Middle East. I'm in the first wave of people to move into my neighborhood and we will eventually displace everybody who lives here into less prosperous places. I was drowning and I needed somebody last year, and I almost dragged them down with me. There's somebody who needs me in their life, but I'd rather not.

It's complicated. And I feel anymore that enacting values is mostly symbolic.
 

Tellenbach

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If we're talking about higher lifeforms and not mosquitoes, roaches, flies, viruses, bacteria, and criminals, then yes.
 

cafe

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Adhere is probably too strong a word and I'd still make qualifications, but as a principle, I believe it's a very good place to start.
 

Coriolis

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1. I make a distinction between harming none (refraining from doing harm) and doing good (taking positive action to alleviate suffering). I try to do both, but they are separate, albeit related guidelines.

2. I include myself in the "none" that should be harmed. Meaning, I avoid things that might bring me harm, whether drugs, excessive alcohol, bad decisions about work or relationships, etc.

3. I see "harm none" as an ideal we should strive towards, but which can never be reached. It is not possible to go through life doing no harm. We must take life just to live - whether animal or plant - and many other daily activities cause harm, either to others or to the environment. If we do none of these things, we will harm our own lives even to the point of death (not eating). It is all a balance. I take "harm none", then, as an admonition to be mindful of the decisions I make and the actions I take (a) to do the least harm possible; and (b) to extract the greatest benefit for whatever harm I cause. It's a bit like the Native Americans who killed a buffalo, but used it all without waste. This includes the case of harming someone else in defense of self or others.

Suffering is something I cannot abide to see and do nothing about - be it another human being, or any other living being. I don't watch the news for a reason and I'm part of several charities to do what I can. If I'm aware that I might've hurt someone - however minor - I feel immensely guilty, even if a part of me rebels and tells me 'they had it coming'.
Interesting you should say this. I sometimes find myself shying away from a news story about abuse or other suffering, but instead, I stop and look. I think: if that person had to endure the actual experience, the least I can do is bear witness to it, to hear their story and be aware of their suffering. On the other hand, I rarely feel guilt. To me, that is a waste of energy that is better spent in making amends if I've wronged someone.
 
A

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I'm curious to see how universal this value is and what it means to people from different backgrounds and types. So do you adhere to it? Why or why not? And what does it encompass for you? How important is it to you? What drives it?

Oh and it would be interesting to state your type first, and then answer, I think.


As for me:

ENFP

I live and breathe this. Suffering is something I cannot abide to see and do nothing about - be it another human being, or any other living being. I don't watch the news for a reason and I'm part of several charities to do what I can. If I'm aware that I might've hurt someone - however minor - I feel immensely guilty, even if a part of me rebels and tells me 'they had it coming'. I feel everyone has the right to be themselves and not be punished or taken advantage of it or be exploited by others for it - that includes animals and more. Free choice and the pain of having that taken already makes me rage, however small. On the other end of the scale is deliberate torture of another living being - something that I just cannot fathom.

I don't think in terms of how I may be harming people; I think in terms of boundaries and respect. I hope my behavior towards others will bring out their best, and when I fail at it, it's disappointing, but I'm not called to be popular; I'm called to effect change.
 
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