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View Poll Results: What types favor religion? Are there some that get really religious?

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  • ESTJ

    19 25.00%
  • ISTJ

    24 31.58%
  • INTJ

    6 7.89%
  • ENTJ

    3 3.95%
  • ESFP

    7 9.21%
  • ISFP

    12 15.79%
  • ESTP

    2 2.63%
  • ISTP

    0 0%
  • INFJ

    30 39.47%
  • INFP

    20 26.32%
  • ENFP

    6 7.89%
  • ENFJ

    19 25.00%
  • ISFJ

    34 44.74%
  • ESFJ

    32 42.11%
  • ENTP

    0 0%
  • INTP

    1 1.32%
  • 1

    16 21.05%
  • 2

    13 17.11%
  • 3

    1 1.32%
  • 4

    7 9.21%
  • 5

    0 0%
  • 6

    14 18.42%
  • 7

    2 2.63%
  • 8

    2 2.63%
  • 9

    7 9.21%
  • SO

    20 26.32%
  • SX

    3 3.95%
  • SP

    9 11.84%
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  1. #111
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    Also something creepy I've never shared is I have an old man friend over 70 since my grandpa died who grew up in LA, and is the epitome of Si dom a la LA....and despite the cultural diff he reminds me of gramps. He gets up in morning to read the Bible and eat the same oatmeal. He packs the same lunch. He eats the same microwave lasagna. On Friday he treats himself to a Subway sandwich. No, really.

    He's grandpa without grandpa. He's grandpa visits LA. He's worked at the same job since he was 35, he eats the same meal every day for the past five or ten years, every night even though I left LA he says "Good night >>>>>" at exactly the same time every day. He changed and made it earlier when I worked on a campground that didn't allow WiFi and still hasn't stopped.

    I LOVE Si doms. Like you have no idea how much I depend on them to feel loved and sane. But yeah, here's this guy. Of course he goes to church. Like a boss. And holds hands with his mentally disabled son as his art student daughter ignores him (I'm the older art student replacement daughter, understand.)
    Likes tinker683 liked this post

  2. #112
    Senior Member badatlife's Avatar
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    Enneagram 2

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    ISFP

    Elaboration:
    It’s been said that type 2’s are often religious. It’s probably an image thing since they want to look “good”. As for the NF part, my experience is that most people don’t really take religion seriously and just keep it up for the sake of tradition. The people who tend to be really devoted are usually NF’s and also ISFPs, I find they tend to take their beliefs more seriously than most.

  3. #113
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    brainwashed people mostly to start with, then it intersects with one's innate tendency for animism and correlates negatively with intellectual capacity.

    For the reasons above I'm sure it correlates with type to a degree but it's too far removed from the causal roots to be relevant. Put any type in a world where religion is only introduced into adulthood and it they'd be unlikely to be religious without the early-life indoctrination
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    brainwashed people mostly to start with, then it intersects with one's innate tendency for animism and correlates negatively with intellectual capacity.

    For the reasons above I'm sure it correlates with type to a degree but it's too far removed from the causal roots to be relevant. Put any type in a world where religion is only introduced into adulthood and it they'd be unlikely to be religious without the early-life indoctrination
    You've totally got the wrong playbook, maybe that's GURPS but in the AD&D playbook the Cleric class is far, far better than this description.

  5. #115
    ha-ha-hoo Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post

    For the reasons above I'm sure it correlates with type to a degree but it's too far removed from the causal roots to be relevant. Put any type in a world where religion is only introduced into adulthood and it they'd be unlikely to be religious without the early-life indoctrination

    How did religions start then? If that were the case, I would think that would mean that humans would have been irreligious longer than they have been irreligious. I find that hard to believe based on history and the archaeology of prehistory.

    What is the intellectual basis for "everyone is born an atheist"? The only evidence I can see is that specific religions are taught by society, but there are a lot of different conclusions one could draw from that.

    From where I sit, people seem to retain all the negative tendencies of religion even when traditional religion is removed, such as in the U.S.S.R (and of course, traditional religion came back in a big way in the U.S.S.R once communism fell). Which makes me think that there's something about those negative tendencies that are more ingrained in human nature, if such a thing exists.
    A path is made by walking on it.

    -Zhuangzi



  6. #116
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julius_Van_Der_Beak View Post
    How did religions start then? If that were the case, I would think that would mean that humans would have been irreligious longer than they have been irreligious. I find that hard to believe based on history and the archaeology of prehistory.
    Like most things religion started 'bit by bit'. Humans have a natural tendency (some more than others) towards animism (ie: giving human qualities to the outside world) so it's natural for humans to give agency to their environment.
    Give it enough time and you go from calling a storm 'angry' to complex sets of superstitions to organized religion. I don't equate religion with belief in the supernatural by the way. So when i say religion is do mean religion as it is conceptualized today.

    What is the intellectual basis for "everyone is born an atheist"? The only evidence I can see is that specific religions are taught by society, but there are a lot of different conclusions one could draw from that.
    I never stated that, i simply stated that if people were not indoctrinated into religion in their early years religiosity would probably almost disappear, however I'm pretty sure people would still be superstitious (probably even more than now)
    You can't be born with culture, culture is acquired after birth (stating the obvious yes). Though I guess that if one uses a negative definition of the word (absence of belief rather than belief of absence), yeah, kids are born 'atheistic' as they don't have a belief in god, they are then indoctrinated into whatever belief their parents and environment deem correct.


    From where I sit, people seem to retain all the negative tendencies of religion even when traditional religion is removed, such as in the U.S.S.R (and of course, traditional religion came back in a big way in the U.S.S.R once communism fell). Which makes me think that there's something about those negative tendencies that are more ingrained in human nature, if such a thing exists.
    Yep agreed. I don't think just 'getting rid of religion' is some kind of magic fix either.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  7. #117
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    You've totally got the wrong playbook, maybe that's GURPS but in the AD&D playbook the Cleric class is far, far better than this description.
    : P
    Okey I've never played any of these so couldn't tell. But yeah if magic was real I'm sure devout people would have neat powers.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  8. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julius_Van_Der_Beak View Post
    How did religions start then? If that were the case, I would think that would mean that humans would have been irreligious longer than they have been irreligious. I find that hard to believe based on history and the archaeology of prehistory.

    What is the intellectual basis for "everyone is born an atheist"? The only evidence I can see is that specific religions are taught by society, but there are a lot of different conclusions one could draw from that.

    From where I sit, people seem to retain all the negative tendencies of religion even when traditional religion is removed, such as in the U.S.S.R (and of course, traditional religion came back in a big way in the U.S.S.R once communism fell). Which makes me think that there's something about those negative tendencies that are more ingrained in human nature, if such a thing exists.
    Bertrand Russell used to talk about there being protestant and catholic atheists after they had come to atheism because he thought that the stamp of culture lasted longer than people thought, even the people themselves involved.

    Ironically, Hilaire Belloc said something very similar, in the great heresys he talked about a "spirit of protestantism", I found it very interesting because he's not simply talking about agitators or a sort of "perennial opposition", people be begin as intractable opponents but at the first opportunity will become the greatest defenders or greatest conservatives in a "new order" they think is of their making, there's a bunch of examples that I'm sure anyone can think of. I'm sure that election cycles work with this kind of thing, avoid war of the roses style struggles of succession etc.

    I do think that religion, politics, ideology, whatever becomes a channel for something much more fundamental.

    Jung's theories of archetypes and his idea of the unconscious as a mandela of different complexes, ie archetypes which have been integrated, I think is one good illustration of the idea, there are others, less spiritual or esoteric perhaps.

    When people attack religion or clericism or organisation or institutions or whatever they're mistaking the symbolic or picture for the thing itself I reckon.

    Also I think this type of thing just happens, atheists trash religious people the way that religious people, sometimes, trash atheists, not so much anymore, at least I dont see it myself. I have read a couple of authors, like Hans Kuhn, who, without being totally disrespectful or anything, have suggested that things like attachment style do influence peoples predilections for religion or secularism. I think that's right.

    I've read a good book on attachment lately which deals with that and I think a family with father, mother, siblings, secure parental and sibling bonds can provide certain patterns, expectations etc. Maybe an atheist could or would suggest it creates unwitting optimism and a predilection for delusion. I dont see much value in those sorts of circular discussions though. The author of the book does go on about a lot of things like "being saved" and uses a pretty unique language that doesnt mean much to me and I think is really unhelpful but its tradition, not mine and I'm fine with that.

    One thing I would say is that its pretty lazy a lot of the time the trashing that I do read.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    : P
    Okey I've never played any of these so couldn't tell. But yeah if magic was real I'm sure devout people would have neat powers.


    Magic.

    You know what they say about magic.

  9. #119
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Taking out the big guns, I see
    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Bertrand Russell used to talk about there being protestant and catholic atheists after they had come to atheism because he thought that the stamp of culture lasted longer than people thought, even the people themselves involved.
    yep totally in agreement with you there. Atheistic christians, jews, muslims still often seem to espouse many of the traits and values associated with said religion. It's kind of like entropy. Once you pour the Dye into the water you can never really separate the two again.


    Ironically, Hilaire Belloc said something very similar, in the great heresys he talked about a "spirit of protestantism", I found it very interesting because he's not simply talking about agitators or a sort of "perennial opposition", people be begin as intractable opponents but at the first opportunity will become the greatest defenders or greatest conservatives in a "new order" they think is of their making, there's a bunch of examples that I'm sure anyone can think of. I'm sure that election cycles work with this kind of thing, avoid war of the roses style struggles of succession etc.

    I do think that religion, politics, ideology, whatever becomes a channel for something much more fundamental.
    Yes i see alot of this happening now, there is a limited 'rebirth' of traditional values coming from people or the types of people who in the early 2000s would reject religion and all it's related cultural elements. Hell I see that in myself to a degree, where, despite finding the descriptions of the supernatural supplied by Christianity to be bordering on the absurd, I recognize many of the positive aspects of christianity compared to other religions' cultural baggage.

    Jung's theories of archetypes and his idea of the unconscious as a mandela of different complexes, ie archetypes which have been integrated, I think is one good illustration of the idea, there are others, less spiritual or esoteric perhaps.

    When people attack religion or clericism or organisation or institutions or whatever they're mistaking the symbolic or picture for the thing itself I reckon.[/quote]
    care to build on that idea? Not quite grasping your meaning.

    Also I think this type of thing just happens, atheists trash religious people the way that religious people, sometimes, trash atheists, not so much anymore, at least I dont see it myself. I have read a couple of authors, like Hans Kuhn, who, without being totally disrespectful or anything, have suggested that things like attachment style do influence peoples predilections for religion or secularism. I think that's right.
    Interesting. I've never consider it from that particular perspective. For me it's about animism and our tendency, as individuals with agency, to want to give our environment agency. But your perspective is intriguing. Care to elaborate?

    I've read a good book on attachment lately which deals with that and I think a family with father, mother, siblings, secure parental and sibling bonds can provide certain patterns, expectations etc. Maybe an atheist could or would suggest it creates unwitting optimism and a predilection for delusion. I dont see much value in those sorts of circular discussions though. The author of the book does go on about a lot of things like "being saved" and uses a pretty unique language that doesnt mean much to me and I think is really unhelpful but its tradition, not mine and I'm fine with that.

    One thing I would say is that its pretty lazy a lot of the time the trashing that I do read.

    - - - Updated - - -
    I do think that how people picture god has alot to do with how they view their parents. There is a paternalistic feel to the Abrahamic god.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post


    Magic.

    You know what they say about magic.
    That's it's magic?
    That any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic?
    That you can spend a fortune collecting these damn magic the gathering cards and you might as well just buy them by the unit in a specialized store?
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  10. #120
    ha-ha-hoo Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Bertrand Russell used to talk about there being protestant and catholic atheists after they had come to atheism because he thought that the stamp of culture lasted longer than people thought, even the people themselves involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eck View Post
    yep totally in agreement with you there. Atheistic christians, jews, muslims still often seem to espouse many of the traits and values associated with said religion. It's kind of like entropy. Once you pour the Dye into the water you can never really separate the two again.
    I've actually noticed this myself, and I actually feel relieved to know that it's not my original idea, so I can be sure that I'm not pulling things out of my ass.


    Interesting. I've never consider it from that particular perspective. For me it's about animism and our tendency, as individuals with agency, to want to give our environment agency. But your perspective is intriguing. Care to elaborate?


    I do think that how people picture god has alot to do with how they view their parents. There is a paternalistic feel to the Abrahamic god.
    Definitely.
    A path is made by walking on it.

    -Zhuangzi



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