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Do we have Free Will? Or is Everything Determined?

Do we have Free Will? Or is Everything Determined?


  • Total voters
    9

Zarathustra

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None of the above

I believe in compatibilism or soft determinism. I think determinism and freewill coexist.

Could you expand on this.

At one time in my life, I used to think about this question a lot, and I think I did just about all the thinking you can do on the matter, and one conclusion I arrived at was that those two terms are mutually exclusive.

I usually am absolutely fine allowing for paradox, but I don't think this is a case where it can simply be explained by paradox. I believe, by definition, that determinism means we have no free will.
 
W

WALMART

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On another note, I hate that all of my favorite songs bring up the same title by Katie Perry or Justin Bieber first.

(doesn't say much about my taste)
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Free will is at least constrained by our ignorance. How can will be entirely free if it is by nature lacking some information on which to base choices?
 

gromit

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Yikes those are a lot of absolutes in the poll. Where's the grey area for the Ps? I say it's a little of both.

But I guess, from a sort of moral standpoint I'd want to say that yes we do, we can put our mind to something and change the course of our lives. But I guess a lot of the time that is not what happens. A lot of the time, we're just going along sort of on autopilot, responding how we'd naturally respond to a situation, etc. But there are the rare moments where you realize WOW I can make an impact on this situation, change the direction this is headed for me, it doesn't have to be like this.

Oh damn... I don't know where I was going with this anymore.

I guess there's just like... situational/life/personality momentum... and likelihoods that people will defy that. And sometimes, people just surprise you.

Maybe it's rare that any of us actually exercise our free will.
 

Evo

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I just came to my conclusion on this the other day actually <_< weirds.

You have the free will to choose if you are going to have free will, or let your life be determined by default

You create your world by the way you choose to percieve it.

Law of attraction works whether you're happy or sad.

Therefore short answer is yes we have free will...but if you don't wanna take responsibility for your own life then you are choosing pre-determination by default...so technically it's still free will but people don't see the choices they have, so they don't believe it...

Just like we don't see outside a certian spectrum of light...doesn't mean it's not there.

Bam! You're welcome!
 

skylights

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My answer is that we might as well assume we have free will.

Even if it ends up deterministic, we couldn't have avoided that anyway. But in the case that it isn't, we're wasting a lot if we don't try to act freely.
 

Beorn

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Could you expand on this.

At one time in my life, I used to think about this question a lot, and I think I did just about all the thinking you can do on the matter, and one conclusion I arrived at was that those two terms are mutually exclusive.

I usually am absolutely fine allowing for paradox, but I don't think this is a case where it can simply be explained by paradox. I believe, by definition, that determinism means we have no free will.

Sure, I get that. It's mostly my theological beliefs which compel my paradoxical philosophical beliefs on the subject. I both believe in a sovereign God who is in control of everything and in individual moral culpability. In my mind it's a bit like magnetic car racers I had as a kid. The cars propelled themselves once they were let go, but they were constantly constrained by the way I laid the track, by forces of nature, by their own nature, And by my desire to intervene. Not a perfect analogy as it is ultimately a paradox with no perfect analogy, but hopefully you get the idea.
 
S

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we are a predetermined agent for whom the state of considering the possible choices it has - as far as it knows - is an essential part of it's nature, even if both that nature and the choice it will end up making are predetermined.

basically, at any given time we are "free as far as we know" - this is not dismissing freewill as an illusion - rather the opposite - it illustrates the importance of thinking in terms of free will. we are predetermined to make choices in a state where we can't predetermine which choice we will make. despite being predetermined and/or random beyond our control, the mechanisms with which we make choices are left unpredictable to us - and so, our minds, our societies and our values have evolved to enable us to function within that state of ignorance, to both use it and to compensate for it.

this is not limited to humans either: an animal needs to make choices as if there are various possible outcomes, because as far as it knows at any given time, there are. a gazelle needs to decide where to run from a lion, despite the fact that whether it gets eaten has being predetermined. the lion needs to try and catch both the gazelle's that will successfully run away and the ones who won't, because as far as it knows, both are possible.

this is an essential part of the nature of anything that has any kind of will.
 
I

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Indeed, it is too complex to map out, but that doesn't mean it's all destined beforehand to go absolutely one way with 100% conclusiveness.

I don't believe it is all determined 100% beforehand, although my previous post might make it seem that way. The previous state dictates the present to a certain degree of accuracy, but the present state will be still affected by constant fluctuations. Once again though, we aren't in control of these variables. How can we be? We are not "above" the physical laws. We are a direct result of their attributes.

The uncertainty principle effectively cuts the ability to determine in half. Remember that not being able to know both the speed and the position of a particle is a fundamental property of the universe, rather than us being ignorant to some hidden variable/principle. So determinism can only be approximate. Furthermore, determinism is lost completely when it comes to black holes. Quantum states are also probabilistic (as is the wave function). The Planck length is so small that the universe on our scale appears deterministic. But it does mean that on a fundamental level, the universe is not completely predetermined.

Keep in mind that knowing the fundamental laws of the universe doesn't mean we can apply them for a case study of every object in space, but it could give us very accurate clues as to the overall structure of the entire cosmos and where it's destined on a broad level to evolve.

Every object in space has to be under the laws of physics because that is how it formed into an object in the first place.

I think you're right about purely physical systems being entirely determined, but that doesn't mean there aren't "meta"-physical systems out there that may act under different laws that are perhaps even subject to alteration. Perhaps metaphysics may play a part in what physical forms we assume upon our incarnations (if you believe in that stuff).

So you would count our minds as a meta-physical system? Why? Surely we are physical systems, just more complex than a star, for example. The consciousness is the result of a tremendously complex physical system, so complex to us that many people need to apply some special force for its existence to appear rational.

This is because we can count on the same precedents applying in every case; that's why we can formulate laws. Of course, I've always seen laws as something to be broken (and then reconstructed into new forms). That's philosophy however, and not physics as we currently know it.

Are you talking about breaking the laws of physics? How would we go about doing that?

It's good to see you considering alternative possibilities here; it seems like you think it's possible that random quantum events can allow for a bit of contingency, but that it still operates independently of our wills - and since our wills can't (under your view) control them, then we might as well just say that we don't have free will, as we can't determine events, let alone self-determine our own actions.

Yeah exactly. Our wills can't be in control of quantum events (which aren't completely random, btw, but are probabilistic rather than deterministic) Our wills are an effect from something else that was created by the very conditions that they create.

Yes, I remember reading the Grand Design 3 years ago. Both of those fellas seem to have similar views and ways of thinking to yourself.

It's true that I do enjoy their way of thinking.

It'd be good to have a "beyond control" poll option that doesn't state that everything is random, nor that everything is predetermined.

In regards to humanity: We have free will. Saying otherwise is rationalizing away blame and consequence of actions. "The universe made me do it!" Etc

And saying we do makes us feel better about our existence.
 

RaptorWizard

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I don't believe it is all determined 100% beforehand, although my previous post might make it seem that way. The previous state dictates the present to a certain degree of accuracy, but the present state will be still affected by constant fluctuations. Once again though, we aren't in control of these variables. How can we be? We are not "above" the physical laws. We are a direct result of their attributes.

I admit, many factors are determined, and it's good I think as you say how QM makes for more uncertainties, no matter how we (under our current methods) measure it out.

The uncertainty principle effectively cuts the ability to determine in half. Remember that not being able to know both the speed and the position of a particle is a fundamental property of the universe, rather than us being ignorant to some hidden variable/principle. So determinism can only be approximate. Furthermore, determinism is lost completely when it comes to black holes. Quantum states are also probabilistic (as is the wave function). The Planck scale is so small that the universe on our scale appears deterministic. But it does mean that on a fundamental level, the universe is not completely predetermined.

I guess you think that even if there is some randomness out there in the QM, because we can't control its results, we may as well just say that it's determining our actions.

Every object in space has to be under the laws of physics because that is how it formed into an object in the first place.

Well, we can calculate whatever is in our scope with the equations, but it wouldn't work to know how everything would interrelate in physical systems all across the universe (unless you're God and can see everything).

So you would count our minds as a meta-physical system? Why? Surely we are physical systems, just more complex than a star, for example. The consciousness is the result of a tremendously complex physical system, so complex to us that many people need to apply some special force for its existence to appear rational.

The brain is a purely physical system; it's just a sack of meat that acts as a sort of gateway between mind and body. I take the position that we have 3 bodies actually: physical, spiritual (negative matter), and energetic (a binder between the 2). I'm not saying that as fact, but I think this explanation may actually capture quite a bit. If you want my opinion on physics, I'll just say that it's both the most fundamental, and least significant of the cosmic systems.

Are you talking about breaking the laws of physics? How would we go about doing that?

This is actually a very good question. As of now, like I mentioned, this idea exists pretty much as a philosophy. It just seems like there might be certain barriers out there that, if sufficient power were harnessed, could be surpassed. And from a higher vantage point, perhaps we could stop being chess pieces, and start becoming chess players. But right now, that idea is way ahead of its time (assuming it has any promise in the first place); the philosophical position is that we need to rise above our restrictions, become more free and able to see or do anything.

Yeah exactly. Our wills can't be in control of quantum events (which aren't completely random, btw, but are probabilistic rather than deterministic) Our wills are an effect from something else that was created by the very conditions that they create.

If our minds were powerful enough, we may discover otherwise, but as for now, the quantum events control us.

It's true that I do enjoy their way of thinking.

I think they have great ideas, but I also think that their ideas don't go far enough.
 

RaptorWizard

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Is it within my free will to type this comment, or was it determined from the dawn of time that I would do so - or did I myself determine it with my force of will!?
 

Cellmold

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I think it is determined, but we possess the ability to rationalise in retrospect which gives the illusion that it isn't.

This comforts us and creates contentedness and if you cannot avoid determinism, then at the least you can enjoy the experience along the way.
 

Thalassa

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Sure, I get that. It's mostly my theological beliefs which compel my paradoxical philosophical beliefs on the subject. I both believe in a sovereign God who is in control of everything and in individual moral culpability. In my mind it's a bit like magnetic car racers I had as a kid. The cars propelled themselves once they were let go, but they were constantly constrained by the way I laid the track, by forces of nature, by their own nature, And by my desire to intervene. Not a perfect analogy as it is ultimately a paradox with no perfect analogy, but hopefully you get the idea.

I completely agree with you for once. I think this even applies to other Eastern philosophy, such as the idea that you have no control over the world but can choose how you respond to it, the idea that at any moment you can choose.

How does mental health play into this, though. If cognitive behavioral therapy can work, then apparently given the right tools you can overcome things.

The hardest thing to master is not the world but ourselves. Even in Christianity you have to choose faith over fear, and realistically how *easy* is that. But it's possible.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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There is no evidence that we have free will, and I'm not certain how it could be proven.

There is evidence that it is at least constrained. It is not limitless as most motivational quotes would have us believe. That we have a concept of it is possibly the best argument in favor of it, although not a convincing one. When one considers the mass of data that makes us up genetically and environmentally, it would be difficult to understand every cause-and-effect.

I suspect our choices are far more determined than people typically like to believe. I've found this can increase my sense of compassion for people because it is possible that we are merely observers of processes which we live out. If that is the case, then consider even the monsters among us to cause harm. They have sentience locked in to observe horrific processes. It dispels any sense of a need for punishment, although there is still a need to stop people from causing harm. It also increases the sense of urgency to correct problematic environmental circumstances for people, especially children.

I approach humanity with the assumption we are only observers of processes which are deterministic. I approach my own life by exercising what feels like free will to make good choices. For any individual making choices I would try to encourage self-empowerment and the possibility of free choice. For considering humanity, I would encourage the assumption of determinstic outcomes to correct problems at their core.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I don't understand people who don't believe in God, but believe in free will. Can someone explain to me what empirically proven mechanism could cause free will? Can someone give me a logical framework for free will? The only thing I've heard is some junk about quantum mechanics that people ripped off of a New Age documentary that is probably inaccurate. I'd love to have someone fill me in more on quantum mechanics, and how this might affect this discussion, but I am not going to engage with them if they do not have a deeper understanding other than a documentary preaching the poisonous "positive attitudes create positive situations" fallacy.

Also, too often people use the concept of free will as a mechanism for abdicating themselves of responsibility (which is ironic, because this is what people accuse determinism of doing) for the consequences of their actions. "i acted like a dick, but he chose to respond in the way he did. I didn't force him to do anything. He chose to be a dick back."

The issue I have with free will is this..... why do people make the choices they make? Do they truly not have reasons? And why do they have those reasons? Because of what happened to them in the past. Because of what they experience. Choices don't exist in a vacuum, they are dependent on experiences, perceptions, and reactions.

Maybe it doesn't look that way on the surface, but this seems to be what's going on once we dig deep enough. Free will doesn't explain human behavior nearly as well as determinism.

Just don't go all Dwayne Hoover on me for this... but I think this stuff is all determined. It's just really fucking complicated, and there are so many variables, that it's not easy to see this, and it may not be apparent that it is determined. But really, the idea that people have magical choice dust in their brains doesn't make any sense to me unless you invoke religion or some other metaphysical system.
 

lowtech redneck

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I don't understand people who don't believe in God, but believe in free will.

Exactly; free will is a faith-based concept, many atheists are just unwilling to accept the logical conclusions of their belief system. Which is fine (I myself prefer to hope that free will and life after death exists, though I'm incapable of having faith in it), except when they look down on religionists for doing essentially the same thing (i.e. preserving their emotional well-being with irrational and paradoxical beliefs). I say, 'to each his Dulcinea' (unless they're attacking windmills, in which case they need to reign that shit in).
 

Magic Poriferan

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If the cosmos is completely deterministic (which it very well might be), then we do not have free will. Everything is already determined including our ideas. Look into Laplace's demon.

If the universe is probabilistic all the way down, we still presumably don't have free will, because we are but a very small component and product of a vast arrays of factors. We are swept up in the fields of probability. What we think is probable, and what we do is trivial.

If the cosmos is completely random, then there is no coherent pattern that could be considered our will, or even results tied to any such things, so there's be no free will in that case either.

So I do not think we have free will.

I also think all of these factors existed outside the range of human perception, so we can easily carry on thinking we have free will. The question is also devoid of practical value. If you don't have free will, then it doesn't matter if you learn you don't have free will, does it?
 

Qlip

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The question is the ultimate intellectual jerk-off. People say they don't, but they go on living their lives making choices as if they matter. Not saying there is freewill, just saying it doesn't really matter.
 

Lark

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I also think all of these factors existed outside the range of human perception, so we can easily carry on thinking we have free will. The question is also devoid of practical value. If you don't have free will, then it doesn't matter if you learn you don't have free will, does it?

Of course it matters.

I consider there to be relative determinism, there is also a difference between free will and freedom, you can at least possess free will and experience cognitive or psychological freedom even if this constitutes the limits or boundary of your freedom.

Learning the difference between free will and freedom is one of the major developmental tasks of any human being, at all the major milestones of human maturation individuals test the boundaries of their freedom, against parental authority, against other sorts of authority which can place limits upon freedom and autonomy.

In a certain sense we only experience absolute freedom when we are sleeping, when we are dreaming, and its not for nothing that Freud et al have suggested that this is the royal road to the unconscious, correspondence from the unconscious self etc. because the unconscious is that which is not perceived, outside the realm of human perception. Although expanding the sphere of freedom individually and collectively involves as a prerequisite making the unconsicous conscious if this is the case.

There is a practical value I think in human consciousness and expanding the spheres of personal and social freedom. Perhaps this is a different question to what you are discussing because I think that perhaps you are suggesting that if we are subject to determinism is beyond perception and cant ever be perceived.
 
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