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  1. #111
    Let Go Of Your Team Zarathustra's Avatar
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    I just wrote a quick piece that basically tears you apart, but, honestly, I don't even feel like posting it.

    You're clearly a very unhealthy enneagram 5, and I wish you the best and improved mental health.
    "I trust what you are doing though…I just see it a little differently.
    I don’t see it as you stepping away from the fire. I see it as the fire directing your course.
    No matter how airy or earthy or watery you become... to many of us you will always be...a super nova."

    "Behind these gates of seeming warmth sits, loosely chained, a fierce attack dog. Perhaps not crazy, but dangerous"

  2. #112
    Bird of War Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    I still have not seen a reference to a book that discusses Hitler's hatred of Beethoven and Mozart. He hated avant-garde modern art. I do not think he hated traditional art.

    I will not post in this thread until I see a reference to one of these "books" that I should be reading that discusses this subject.
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  3. #113
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I still have not seen a reference to a book that discusses Hitler's hatred of Beethoven and Mozart. He hated avant-garde modern art. I do not think he hated traditional art.

    I will not post in this thread until I see a reference to one of these "books" that I should be reading that discusses this subject.
    It's easy to answer.

    1/ Mozart was a freemason.

    2/ He freely worked with Jews, and some of his most prominent operas (Don Giovanni, Cosi fan Tutte, le nozze di Figaro) were written by Lorenzo Da Ponte, an italian Jew.

    As such, the initial move of most Nazi theoricians was trying to ban his works.
    But with the incoming Anschluss (around 1937-38), the German ministry of Propaganda decided to slowly put the emphasis on the so-called "aryanness" of Mozart. So they tried to rehabilitate him and make him a "German hero" in order to gain the favor of the Austrian population. To achieve this, they even pretended that Mozart had been, in fact, poisoned by Jews! But nonetheless, the ban on some of Mozart's major works (those which were written and/or by Jews, and/or freemason inspiration) was still in place in 1945, with the sole exception of "Die Zauberflöte", because indeed Hitler himself confessed he appreciated this one only -who wouldn't!?-. But this special and only exception was against what the Nazi ideology stood for, and a large number of the Nazi zealots and bureaucrats disagreed with it, sometimes very vocally.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    As you have been reading the latest journal of, Science, you have probably come across a study conducted by social psychologists at the New School for Social Research in New York City.

    The study found that high culture increased empathy, social perception, and emotional intelligence, while popular culture failed on all counts.

    And mbti is popular culture which fails to foster empathy, social perception, and emotional intelligence.

    And yet so many here give personal testimony (in the Protestant tradition) that mbti fosters empathy, social perception and emotional intelligence.

    So perhaps we are plagued by group think and confirmation bias.
    I havent been reading that, how do you know what I read? I've not been giving any personal protestant testimony?

    What is happening here?
    All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind.
    Chapter IV, p. 448. - Adam Smith, Book 3, The Wealth of Nations

    whether or not you credit psychoanalysis itself, the fact remains that we all must, to the greatest extent possible, understand one another's minds as our own; the very survival of humanity has always depended on it. - Open Culture

  5. #115
    Bird of War Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    But with the incoming Anschluss (around 1937-38), the German ministry of Propaganda decided to slowly put the emphasis on the so-called "aryanness" of Mozart. So they tried to rehabilitate him and make him a "German hero" in order to gain the favor of the Austrian population. To achieve this, they even pretended that Mozart had been, in fact, poisoned by Jews! But nonetheless, the ban on some of Mozart's major works (those who were written and/or by Jews, and/or freemason inspiration) was still in place in 1945, with the sole exception of "Die Zauberflöte", because indeed Hitler himself confessed he appreciated this one only -who wouldn't!?-. But this special and only exception was against what the Nazi ideology stood for, and a large number of the Nazi zealots and bureaucrats disagreed with it, sometimes very vocally.
    So we're both right, with regards to the facts, although my information was incomplete. To me, though, the motivation seems to be not an opposition to art per se, but a demand that art be subjugated to political ideology. The motivations are political.

    Would he have been banned if he had not been a freemason? I suppose that is the relevant question in this debate. I am inclined to think not. It's like people throwing away their Bruce Springsteen or Dixie Chicks records in 2003-2004... that same sort of mentality. People didn't do that because the music was too good... it had to do with politics.
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  6. #116
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    So we're both right.
    Not exactly, because you don't seem to see the point of what the Nazi ideology really was, and how it predated, destroyed or simply twisted the meaning of what we call here the "high culture".
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  7. #117
    Bird of War Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Not exactly, because you don't seem to see the point of what the Nazi ideology really was, and how it predated, destroyed or simply twisted the meaning of what we call here the "high culture".
    Well, whatever it was, I doubt the end goal was to stop people from looking at pretty pictures. Aesthetics were a huge part of Nazism. Which makes sense, when you think about who Hitler actually was.

    The more I read about the man, the less of a joke I think this site actually is:

    www.hipsterhitler.com
    The gloves are off...
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  8. #118
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Aesthetics were a huge part of Nazism.
    Of course it was. But this is also a point you do not seem to clearly understand: Culture is not the same thing as Aesthetics.

    To take this example once again, you have to imagine that under Nazi Germany, indeed the State would define what acceptable Aesthetics could be... but it was a society totally devoid of any true artist (or they would be put into deportation camps). I would recommend, if you could, that you read for instance Walter Benjamin:

    "The greater the decrease in the social significance of an art form, the sharper the distinction between criticism and enjoyment by the public. The conventional is uncritically enjoyed, and the truly new is criticized with aversion."

    ----

    High culture deals with meaning, uniqueness and individual freedom first, while popular culture deals with Entertainment first, how to please the masses, how to flatter and control them. "Low" culture can be compared to a selling show, to advertisement: the inner mechanisms are the same (See "Society of the spectacle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Soc..._the_Spectacle ).

    It's only marketing and business. And Totalitarian states exploited the same tools, while in the same time they were denying any sense of meaning, uniqueness, and individual freedom.

    "In a world which really is topsy-turvy, the true is a moment of the false." (Debord)
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  9. #119
    Bird of War Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Situationism?

    Is the difference between high and low culture that one is masturbatory, and the other isn't? I could accept that definition.

    Not sure what I think of situationism, though. I'm not of the opinion that this kind of thing does anything.
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  10. #120
    Meat Tornado DiscoBiscuit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Contemporary things are not what I think of when I think of high culture. I never get the sense that people invoking the term "high culture" are referring to Paul Thomas Anderson, or (even better) Stanley Kubrick movies, for instance. "High culture" to me, privileges the traditional over the innovative. I've never seen a good denotation of "high culture", so I'm stuck with the connotations it turns up.
    Then you fundamentally misunderstand high culture.
    Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion.
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