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  1. #61


    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    If sexual imagery is pornography, we know what to think, because pornography is the graphic representation of the brothel.

    We have made a first step in improving the brothel by legally registering sex workers so they can unionise, are subject to health and safety regulations, and are protected by police.

    The second step has been made by Sweden, that while keeping sex work legal, the purchase of sex is illegal.

    The purpose and effect of steps 1 and 2 is to limit the power of men and increase the power of women, one step at a time.
    We know that sexual imagery is not limited to porn. I would say that it is quite common in main stream media.

    Note:I did not want to sound like I agree with the oversimplification of the attitudes towards sexual imagery given. I figured there would be plenty of people chiming in with "It's not that simple."

    However, tying this back to the body hair thing. I thought one of the aspects of "sex positiveness" was to take back this notion that only Barbie and Ken are attractive. Hence things like "big is beautiful", "mature and sexy", and a celebration of the human body in its natural form. There are of course NSFW words for these things too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I am interested in the broader question of appearance, going beyond body hair to clothing, (head) hairstyles, jewelry, piercings, body art, even colors used. There is less objection nowadays to men wearing earrings, or women with tattoos. But a man in a skirt is still mostly viewed as a spectacle (unless it's a kilt), while a woman can get away with wearing traditionally masculine clothing. Then there is the question I raised elsewhere, of why in a given setting, women dress to leave much more exposed skin than men. Why? Why to all of it??? What if anything do these choices say about inherent male/female differences, or cultural conditioning, or feminism/rebellion?
    This is what I was getting at, but was having trouble finding good examples, words. Thank you for being more articulate.

    I am curious what insight people have into this. Can the sexual imagery that is mostly catered to and created by men who have particular tastes be brought into a more balanced and diverse expression?

    Also, @Mole mentioned prostitution too. Can this even be done in a way that is not harmful? I am not entirely sure what happened in Sweden. But my understanding is that selling sex is legal, but buying it is not?

    I did some minimal digging. I am not sure why demographics of the "John"s are so much easier to find, but they are. I found some information about various countries.
    Some statistics about prostitution from this site ( that this is not a primary source, I will look for better)
    While men who solicit prostitution are not atypical demographically or in terms of criminal history, they are unsurprisingly and measurably different in terms of a range of attitudes toward women, relationships, and commercial sex... [C]onsumers were less likely to be happily married than men in national samples, to have sexually liberal attitudes (e.g., to view premarital sex, sex among minors, and homosexuality as acceptable), and to think about sex more often. Commercial sex participants were also less likely to have been sexually molested as children, or to report having forced women into sexual acts. The differences between samples were not large, but were statistically significant.
    (A summary of the quoted report is supposedly here: , but I was not able to find the quote)

    Contact [with prostitutes] is higher among those living in metropolitan areas, Blacks, those with lower incomes, veterans (probably when in military service), those who attend church less frequently, and those having gone through a divorce or are currently separated. Among married men paying for sex during the last 12 months is strongly related to low marital happiness.
    (I believe the source is here:, but it is behind a pay wall)

    The above seems to indicate some amount of class/race bias in those who go to prostitutes. I had once talked to a retired person knowledge about this and he claimed that the John's in the area were mainly Hispanics and Blacks, and that the "escorts" and "sensual masseuses" tended to be Black or Asian.

    Demographics of arrest in Vancouver is here:
    You can compare against general demographics.

    Here, race doesn't seem to play as big a role, but education level and geography does.

    Frankly, I am more confused than I began searching about this.

    I believe, like with drugs, criminalizing those participating in prostitution will tend to disproportionately stigmatize those who already have trouble, while those coming from families with connections will find ways to sweep offenses under the rug.

    However, prostitution does seem like something where availability will fuel demand, which in-turn will fuel many of the harmful activities associated with prostitution.

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  2. #62
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Why? Why to all of it??? What if anything do these choices say about inherent male/female differences, or cultural conditioning, or feminism/rebellion?
    Women are sexy. Men are sexual.

    Women are sexy to turn men on, while men experience their own sexuality.

    So women experience alienated sexuality, that is, sexuality for men.

    And men own their own sexuality.

    This is because of the power relations between men and women. Men own their sexuality and are in power, and men also own the sexuality of women.

    So men have the power to alienate the sexuality of women for their own benefit.

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