Calling all Muslims: I am considering becoming Muslim

[EJCC]

[MENTION=17782]Newbyagain[/MENTION]

This'll probably be my last post in this thread because I've already stated my case as well as I can:
If you're unclear about what aspects of Christianity are people-related vs. religion-related, you NEED to either talk to experts/holy (wo)men, do some reading (St. Augustine? Martin Luther?), or both. You can't judge "how Christians are" until you've done that.

Before you make your decision, you need to be as certain as you can be. And that certainty cannot be built on bad information, because I guarantee that house won't stand. This is too important for anything less.

So, my last thought here is: Please, for the love of God -- literally -- step back and think about what you're doing. Because your current modus operandi seems dangerously sloppy and haphazard.

 

[Newbyagain]

Have you considered living with the Hare Krishna instead?

They have a very strict amount of structure, follow a strict diet, chant a particular number of times a day, and essentially say that Hare Krishna literally translates to Christ Come.

Some people call it Hinduism for Christians, it would give you the structure you crave, with less jihad.

Not that all of Islam is bad, but your desperate need for structure seems like it would make you vulnerable to extremism.

No I do not want to do the branches of Christianity. I like places with more rules. I don't want to be apart of a place where people say the interpretation is completely up to however you want. Of course we all need to come to our own conclusion about the Bible, but with the help of people who are experienced in it. I don't like going to church with people announcing all over the place things they are doing that they should not be doing and using wacky interpretations of scripture to excuse it. That is one purpose in community, that people will be strong enough to call out unacceptable behavior. I just don't see that in a lot of branches. I see stubbornness.

I would rather find more out about Jihad before we are sure that there is this evilness behind it.

 

[Newbyagain]

I don't really understand you. I've already lived in a few muslim countries, and I'd say that 99% of them do not really practise what their religion said (and most of the times, it is fortunate!). I don't find the muslim world to be especially structured, unless, of course, you've met dangerous extremist sectarians (like the wahhabites). Just like Kyuuei said, the local culture can wildly affect the way Islam is preached. Islam can be either quite tolerant and progressive (Mali, Morocco) or completely insane and xenophobic (Pakistan, Saudi Arabia), it has lots of different faces, most of them contradicting each other -that's why the worst ennemy of a muslim is, most of the time, another muslim-. Despite all the propaganda, there's no real unity within the muslim world, and most of the muslim sects will try to use you for mere political reasons rather than things like "spirituality" -unless, of course, you consider reading the Sufis-

Of course, nobody completely practices what their religion teaches, because nobody is flawless and Muslims believe this too. But consider that most people are not divorcing and there is a bigger dedication with prayer and covering yourself to prevent temptation, you just don't see this with very many Christians. I will give credit that there are some Christians who spend a lot of time praying, but you still have the same problems over and over and over and over again; sex, money, exploitation, worldly concerns. It doesn't stop in the Christian culture that I experience here in the states. I can't keep on living in this never ending battle and truly give up the lifestyle that condones these things on my own. I need to be around other people who see this flaw.

 

[EJCC]

Ok I thought I was done, but I have another question:

What's keeping you from joining a community of Muslims and remaining Christian?

 

[Newbyagain]

Oh, and I meant to say this somewhere, but I am sure that Islam was created by God, because he sent Ishmael there to be the leader of many nations. I am just saying that for the people who are Christian and have this insensitivity or lack of respect for the religion. I think God wanted great things for Ishmael since him and his mother were used and rejected. My only issue is really Christ's place all of this. I know Muslims believe he was a prophet, but I don't want to make the mistake of denouncing that he was the son of God if he really was.

 

[Newbyagain]

Ok I thought I was done, but I have another question:

What's keeping you from joining a community of Muslims and remaining Christian?

I didn't really think that was possible. I know I could become friends with some, but I don't think I could really be apart of the religion without at least eventually converting.

 

[EJCC]

I didn't really think that was possible. I know I could become friends with some, but I don't think I could really be apart of the religion without at least eventually converting.

There's a difference between becoming part of the community and part of the religion. (When I say "community", I don't mean the umma. Should have been clearer.)

Depending on how liberal they are, I don't see how they'd have a problem with you joining them for spiritual discussion and worship. Many of your values would be the same and you'd have a lot in common -- and even in the worst case scenario, they'd respect you as a person of the Book.

 

[Newbyagain]

How do you mean this?

Because there are a lot of Muslims who are very passionate about what they believe in, plus it's at least a little bit of an unfamiliar territory. I also know Muslims are mostly very private people, making even more unknown. I am saying, my intuition tells me to be careful. If I get involved in this community and then decide not to convert even, I need to be thoughtful about how this may be taken. Just like going into a new country, you are scared and you don't know how things will go, so until you get a good feel for things, you keep your mouth shut and stay on guard.

 

[Blackmail!]

Of course, nobody completely practices what their religion teaches, because nobody is flawless and Muslims believe this too. But consider that most people are not divorcing and there is a bigger dedication with prayer and covering yourself to prevent temptation, you just don't see this with very many Christians. I will give credit that there are some Christians who spend a lot of time praying, but you still have the same problems over and over and over and over again; sex, money, exploitation, worldly concerns. It doesn't stop in the Christian culture that I experience here in the states. I can't keep on living in this never ending battle and truly give up the lifestyle that condones these things on my own. I need to be around other people who see this flaw.

Well, the issues about "sex, money, exploitation, worldly concerns" are far worst and more hypocritical within the muslim world.

Muslims are supposed to help each other, and especially the poors and the destitutes. But when you're in Dubai, you have the ultimate proof that it's total bullshit. You know the rule with imams: the more devout they seem, the more hypocritical and manipulative they really are.

 

[Newbyagain]

If you're looking at the whole 'practice what you preach'.. the Koran gives more scripts and favorable mentions to women on respecting them than Jewish or Christian texts combined. (I'd give a quote, but that was in our textbook in school and confirmed by a girl in our class) The problem is? The culture doesn't always equate to the religion. Iraqi men treated their women like shit. They treated every single woman like a piece of property.

I actually agree with you on that. I feel like Muslims are more respectful towards women. But I will say that I don't think Iraqi men treat women like dirt anymore than many other Muslims. I was there for a year.

Thanks for the rest of the advice. That's true.

 

[Blackmail!]

I never felt I was a slave or in bondage. As far as eternal life goes, most practicing Christians will tell you we don't know exactly what that is, but a lot of people believe that eternal life starts in this life. It does not mean necessarily that you go to heaven and live it up, but that if you follow the laws, you become closer to God, happiness, peace, and contentment and that when you sin you separate yourself from God. This is my complaint about Christianity though. I don't know if it is the religions fault or the people's interpretation, but somehow people equate forgiveness to no consequences or justice and I am glad I am bringing this up and talking about this because I have read before (I can't remember where) that God wants justice and it is the evil minded who do not.

You already speak like a muslim.

The Christian God is a God of love, while Allah is a God of justice. But now the paradox is that the most unjust and unfair societies of the world are most of the time Muslim. It's a more extreme world, where slaves and billionaires can live in the same street, breathe the same air and supposedly share the same religion.

 

[Newbyagain]

Well, the issues about "sex, money, exploitation, worldly concerns" are far worst and more hypocritical within the muslim world.

Muslims are supposed to help each other, and especially the poors and the destitutes. But when you're in Dubai, you have the ultimate proof that it's total bullshit. You know the rule with imams: the more devout they seem, the more hypocritical and manipulative they really are.

Sex, money, exploitation. What I mean by that is in the U.S., women are on billboards; divorces, adultery, infidelity, and money is often mixed into this. People wanting to climb to the top at work, sacrificing everything decent to get there. People lowering their spiritual standards to have these things.

If even in Dubai and Qatar where I have also been, people do not have these issues correlated with wealth, then I don't see wealth to be a problem. But I do understand what you are saying and they may have some problems connected with it also, but still, I feel like they are better off.

 

[Blackmail!]

I actually agree with you on that. I feel like Muslims are more respectful towards women. But I will say that I don't think Iraqi men treat women like dirt anymore than many other Muslims. I was there for a year.

You're wrong. In Iraq, women are not treated like dirt, they are treated like trash, like a sub-human specie or like herd animals. In Saudi Arabia, it's even worst.

But it's more related to local culture than Islam per se. In many other parts of the muslim world (for instance Western Africa, central Asia or Indonesia), the fate of women is much better -even if nothing is granted-.

 

[Newbyagain]

You already speak like a muslim.

The Christian God is a God of love, while Allah is a God of justice. But now the paradox is that the most unjust and unfair societies of the world are most of the time Muslim. It's a more extreme world, where slaves and billionaires can live in the same street, breathe the same air and supposedly share the same religion.

Why do you believe that the Christian God does not believe in justice? What is cruel about that?

 

[Blackmail!]

Sex, money, exploitation. What I mean by that is in the U.S., women are on billboards; divorces, adultery, infidelity, and money is often mixed into this. People wanting to climb to the top at work, sacrificing everything decent to get there. People lowering their spiritual standards to have these things.

If even in Dubai and Qatar where I have also been, people do not have these issues correlated with wealth, then I don't see wealth to be a problem. But I do understand what you are saying and they may have some problems connected with it also, but still, I feel like they are better off.

In many ways, Dubai is worst than Las Vegas, more superficial, more indecent.

And yes, inequalities are the major issues. That's why you have revolutions, that's why people are so upset. When you are an Emirati or a Saudi prince, you already have hundreds of slave-girls at your immediate disposal. And for them, divorce is not an option, they simply do not have the choice. So don't speak about adultery, infidelity or even "spiritual standards" after this...

It's all a tragic joke!

 

[Newbyagain]

You're wrong. In Iraq, women are not treated like dirt, they are treated like trash, like a sub-human specie or like herd animals. In Saudi Arabia, it's even worst.

But it's more related to local culture than Islam per se. In many other parts of the muslim world (for instance Western Africa, central Asia or Indonesia), the fate of women is much better -even if nothing is granted-.

What gives you the idea that women in Iraq are treated like trash? I know many women who are happy with their lifestyle in Iraq and in many other Muslim countries too.

 

[Newbyagain]

In many ways, Dubai is worst than Las Vegas.

And yes, inequalities are the major issues. That's why you have revolutions, that's why people are so upset.

But I don't see strip clubs on every corner in Dubai.

 

[Newbyagain]

Holy crap, are you kidding me. (also, good call, [MENTION=6164]Riva[/MENTION])

In that case, absolutely never assume that a man who has the power to get away with having other wives wouldn't go for it just because he once said so. That's not how things work.

True.

 

[Blackmail!]

But I don't see strip clubs on every corner in Dubai.

It's because you haven't searched where you should. Prostitution is everywhere, even in Dubai.

You also have places in Dubai where women (sometimes nubile ones) are tortured or raped in the open, just to please their rich masters. Seek what happens to young Bengladeshi or Filipino women there. So I don't know if Las Vegas strip clubs are better: at last women there are not supposed to get hurt, and are protected by the US law.

In Dubai or in Saudi Arabia, when a woman gets raped, most of the time she will be condemned instead of her aggressors. It says a lot.

 

[Newbyagain]

It's because you haven't searched where you should. Prostitution is everywhere, even in Dubai.

You also have places in Dubai where women (sometimes nubile ones) are tortured or raped in the open, just to please their rich master. Seek what happens to young Bengladeshi or Filipino women there. So I don't know if Las Vegas strip clubs are better: at last women there are not supposed to get hurt, and are protected by the US law.

In Dubai or in Saudi Arabia, if a woman gets raped, most of the time she will be condemned instead of her aggressors. It says a lot.

I know there is prostitution in Muslim countries, but it is nothing like the U.S.

As far as the rape/ torture thing, you are putting one extreme example out there into the box with all Muslims?

I am pretty sure the religion doesn't condone murdering someone for being raped. I am not at all agreeing to it, but you should consider why that rare problem arises. If you look at the values in their culture, you can see why people are so disturbed over it. Women are held to being the ultimate matriarchal figure, who are kept clean and pure and they do place a lot of responsibility on her not to be in a situation that it could happen. Of course nobody's plans to protect their self from such cruelty are 100% fool proof and the guy should be punished. But again, we don't know enough about it to be the basis for making harsh statements about Islam.