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"In a certain light, wouldn't nuclear war be exciting?"

In a certain light, wouldn't nuclear war be exciting?


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Thalassa

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It is damn too. All those in favor of nuclear excitement are recognising that aspects of the collapse can be exciting, while the anti-nuclear wowsers are requiring us all to get buried under the entirety of this one, unitary, monolithic, and realistically conceived-in-detail death's head mushroom cloud. It's insanely conservative picture-making, no other imagery allowed.

Which is entirely bizarre because just how many books and movies are now out of bounds? For that matter, and a whole lot more seriously on a pseudo-psychology forum, though apparently no one has seen fit to recognise this, but what are you people saying to actual troops who come back from actual battle in actual concrete circumstance of death and murder, and they say, THAT WAS EXCITING!?

If there is even one person who nearly got blown up in Boston saying they were thrilled and excited by the sound and violence that didn't kill them.... THEY MUST BE SICK IN THE HEAD RIGHT?

I am surprise.


Besides, if it had been...

This Side of The Blast Radius (New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1920)
The Beautiful and Bombed (New York: Scribners, 1922)
The Great Fat Boy (New York: Scribners, 1925)
Tender Is the Nuke (New York: Scribners, 1934)
and
The Love of the Last Tycoon (Because All The Others are Radioactive) –


THEN YOU'D BE PRO_BOMB 2

You should take this all up with Morrissey, being an INFP who has Si, who sang it's the bomb the bomb the bomb that will bring us together.

I think thunderstorms are exciting, but the possibility of people dying in a thunderstorm are far lower, and usually the rain does the land and animals good.

I care about things like the environment, animals, etc. to think that this is an exciting answer to 21st century corporate over-socialization.

I absolutely hate the idea of men doing more harm to innocent living things than they already have.

In my case it's Fi rigidity of morals, I know this to be a fact.
 

Thalassa

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You don't have to be a teenager to find it interesting to play around with "what-if" scenarios: how would I survive on the street? If I were going to rob a bank, how would I do it? It is far better to play out these scenarios in one's imagination than in reality. (Aren't many video games based on the premise of giving the players thrills they cannot experience IRL?) My SO actually does this quite a bit: what if our house were destroyed in a natural disaster? what if we were kidnapped on overseas travel? What if someone took out the regional power/comm grid? Also far less realistic situations. That doesn't mean he wants any of these to happen. I think he just enjoys the mental exercise of thinking them through. I do sometimes as well, though more from the practical benefit of contingency planning.

No, usually it's teenagers who haven't actually experienced things. As an adult if you've ever gotten close to living on the street or whatever, then you're disabused of the silly notion.

Once you learn the odds against people succeeding at robbing a bank, then too you get disabused of that notion.

It's not that I never ask "what if;" to the contrary, if I hadn't asked "what if there was a nuclear bomb" for the past twenty years of my life, why in the fuck would I know so much about nuclear disasters and have such strong feelings about it?

I have an incredible facility for imagining things, what it would be like to experience them, but realistically, not like floating around on clouds, I don't know, but I have a feeling my imagination is more based in Se.
 

Coriolis

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No, usually it's teenagers who haven't actually experienced things. As an adult if you've ever gotten close to living on the street or whatever, then you're disabused of the silly notion.

Once you learn the odds against people succeeding at robbing a bank, then too you get disabused of that notion.
That's the point. If you have actually experienced something, you don't need to do this exercise. If you have been forced to consider it out of practical necessity, you have already done the exercise. And the best way to disabuse yourself of a bad idea like bank robbery is to think it through carefully, and understand the realities you mention. Thought experiments are wonderful, and often safer than their concrete counterparts.
 

Kalach

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Can't we just get along.

It's astoundingly interesting that, voila, a wild, really obvious difference in conceptual focus appears. And it really does seem to lead to genuine, nearly intractable difference of opinion.

BUT YOU PEOPLE ARE NOT JUDGING THE SAME OBJECTS!!!

How about that, eh?



#giftsdontdiffer-alotofthemarejustwrong
 

Thalassa

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Can't we just get along.

It's astoundingly interesting that, voila, a wild, really obvious difference in conceptual focus appears. And it really does seem to lead to genuine, nearly intractable difference of opinion.

YOU PEOPLE ARE NOT JUDGING THE SAME OBJECTS!!!

How about that, eh?



#giftsdontdiffer-alotofthemarejustwrong

Kalach, the OP has Si.

All of those books? Written before anyone actually dropped a nuclear bomb or had a nuclear power plant disaster.

Just stop while you're ahead.

Yes, clearly we are seeing different things, but it's a complex number of factors, I think.
 

Kalach

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But you keep doing it, Marm. You keep emphasizing the concrete reality of nuclear war. The concrete aspects that we can know from any number of traditional sources including but not limited to history, newsreel, photos, lists of the dead....

And de-emphasizing, say, how war time narratives always include stories of EXCITING things like heroism, adventure, challenege; and how cataclysmic war would push the stakes so much higher that this kind of story cannot not be exciting.


The Road, Cormac Macarthy.
Not exciting.
 

Thalassa

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But you keep doing it, Marm. You keep emphasizing the concrete reality of nuclear war. The concrete aspects that we can know from any number of traditional sources including but not limited to history, newsreel, photos, lists of the dead....

And de-emphasizing, say, how war time narratives always include stories of EXCITING things like heroism, adventure, challenege; and how cataclysmic war would push the stakes so much higher that this kind of story cannot not be exciting.


The Road, Cormac Macarthy.
Not exciting.

Battle is exciting. I'm not sure how you confuse nuclear bombs with combat. I don't see where things like heroism, adventure and challenge can come in there, in a full scale nuclear-war.

But you're basically saying anyone who understands that nuclear war is a horrific destructive has Si, and see a couple of young INxP males in this thread saying "sure yeah, exciting."

If by your estimation I am ENFP, I have even less Si then these folks are supposed to have, and Kalach you just aren't making sense.

You think everything is about Ni and Si. It's a bit off.

I mean now you're saying Rasofy isn't an INTP, basically.

In my initial post, remember, as a child I at some point came to the conclusions that Russians were exciting, being our sworn enemy or something, but never at any point could I (or most sane people who actually thought it through) reconcile the idea of nuclear war.

I wouldn't want any of you people to be the president.
 

Thalassa

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Here's what you don't understand: I face everything I strongly care about Fi-first. As an INTJ you don't have that problem (except for when you do, there's very little more entertaining than an INTJ on one a la Fi) ...but mostly INTJs run around saying things to FPs like "why do you have enemies" and "why can't you disagree with people without getting upset."

Until they get mad about something themselves. But then they're usually mad, and that's different, according to them, no matter even if it looks like fussing or whining.

This is something I had a strong Fi reaction to. I'm not sure what you don't get. It violates everything I hold dear, from my personal safety to the rights of polar bears and other furry animals.
 

Kalach

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I also think you might be arguing in bad faith marm. That's what happens when Victor posts.

I suggested, with various flags to THE ABSENCE OF THE KIND OF DETAILED PROOF THAT WOULD SATISFY PEOPLE LOOKING FOR CONCRETE EVIDENCE ENOUGH TO NOT HAVE TO GO ALL ABSTRACT ABOUT THINGS, that a trend appears to have presented itself. There are people seeking reassurance in concrete detail, and there are people having fun splitting narrative away from concrete detail. And there seems enough of a correspondence between type and personal position to pin this trend on introverted perception differences. And where that correspondence does not hold is not presently of any interest because not only is it not a disproof, it's not interesting.

The jolly nice thing about type theory is where someone says "You're perception is odd, it's really different from mine", this does NOT mean that eventually your perception will change for the better. Type is type. Different types will be attracted to different things.

Feel free to hate on radiation.
 

Kalach

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Here's what you don't understand: I face everything I strongly care about Fi-first. As an INTJ you don't have that problem (except for when you do, there's very little more entertaining than an INTJ on one a la Fi) ...but mostly INTJs run around saying things to FPs like "why do you have enemies" and "why can't you disagree with people without getting upset."

Until they get mad about something themselves. But then they're usually mad, and that's different, according to them, no matter even if it looks like fussing or whining.

This is something I had a strong Fi reaction to. I'm not sure what you don't get. It violates everything I hold dear, from my personal safety to the rights of polar bears and other furry animals.

And as an Fi-first, who in theory has as the very last instinct the operationalisation of a value, you're not interested other than in terms of a perplexed anxiety, to make people change their minds, right?

Jumping up and down and shouting like an extrovert isn't doing you introvert rep any good.

Tossing out theory tags isn't either.

Failing, resolutely and whole-heartedly, to engage in Ni-relief isn't doing your ISFP rep any good either.

ABSOLUTRELY CHARGING INTO REAL WORLD MECHANISM DEBATE AS IF THE WORLD WAS IMPERSONAL AND COULD BE TALKED ABOUT IN LOGICAL TERMS IS REALLY MAKING TE-TERIARY SOUNDS.... wholly implausible, right?



BURN ALL THE THINGS!!
 

Rasofy

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^
lol.gif
 

Thalassa

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I also think you might be arguing in bad faith marm. That's what happens when Victor posts.

I suggested, with various flags to THE ABSENCE OF THE KIND OF DETAILED PROOF THAT WOULD SATISFY PEOPLE LOOKING FOR CONCRETE EVIDENCE ENOUGH TO NOT HAVE TO GO ALL ABSTRACT ABOUT THINGS, that a trend appears to have presented itself. There are people seeking reassurance in concrete detail, and there are people having fun splitting narrative away from concrete detail. And there seems enough of a correspondence between type and personal position to pin this trend on introverted perception differences. And where that correspondence does not hold is not presently of any interest because not only is it not a disproof, it's not interesting.

The jolly nice thing about type theory is where someone says "You're perception is odd, it's really different from mine", this does NOT mean that eventually your perception will change for the better. Type is type. Different types will be attracted to different things.

Feel free to hate on radiation.

You're just blatantly ignoring people's self-typings. I mean by all accounts apparently now Rasofy is an INTJ or an INFJ, and Randomnity is now no longer an ISTP? According to you Infinite Bubble is not an INTJ (though s/he certainly sounds like one, just a very mature one). An INTJ gave one of the best and most logical arguments against nuclear war being exciting in the entire thread.

I don't know what kind of crack you're smoking. I usually love your posts, but sometimes when you get on these Si/Ni things it seems like you're trolling or have some weird agenda that I can't quite discern. You've been making threads about it for years.
 

Thalassa

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And as an Fi-first, who in theory has as the very last instinct the operationalisation of a value, you're not interested other than in terms of a perplexed anxiety, to make people change their minds, right?

Jumping up and down and shouting like an extrovert isn't doing you introvert rep any good.

Tossing out theory tags isn't either.

Failing, resolutely and whole-heartedly, to engage in Ni-relief isn't doing your ISFP rep any good either.

ABSOLUTRELY CHARGING INTO REAL WORLD MECHANISM DEBATE AS IF THE WORLD WAS IMPERSONAL AND COULD BE TALKED ABOUT IN LOGICAL TERMS IS REALLY MAKING TE-TERIARY SOUNDS.... wholly implausible, right?



BURN ALL THE THINGS!!

Are you calling me an ESFP?

Because Rasofy would still have more Si than I do.
 

Kalach

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Oh Marm.

The last thing you want is some assertion of how much you have or don't have. For if the unconscious is real, then you can't know how much you "have" of one function or another. You don't "have" any of them. You, the only "you" you know about, is only the topmost layer of whatever mechanisms are at work on the inside and underneath of where you are.

But people can get better at recognising patterns or styles, if they put some work into it, and they can sometimes spot the personal variations of the universal they're using as well. Sometimes.

Or mostly.

At night. Mostly.
 

Thalassa

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Oh Marm.

The last thing you want is some assertion of how much you have or don't have. For if the unconscious is real, then you can't know how much you "have" of one function or another. You don't "have" any of them. You, the only "you" you know about, is only the topmost layer of whatever mechanisms are at work on the inside and underneath of where you are.

But people can get better at recognising patterns or styles, if they put some work into it, and they can sometimes spot the personal variations of the universal they're using as well. Sometimes.

Or mostly.

At night. Mostly.

Infinite Bubble is an INTJ and gave the best and most logical argument for exactly what I got so emotionally and ethically disturbed about...it's like s/he framed into perfect logic anything I was feeling.

That's what real INTJs do. Maybe your type isn't INTJ.

As for me charging in with real world real world real world ...

I really do think you're describing me having Se, rather than Te:

In so far as lie thinks and feels, he always reduces down to objective foundations, i.e. to influences coming from the object, quite unperturbed by the most violent departures from logic. Tangible reality, under any conditions, makes him breathe again. In this respect he is unexpectedly credulous. He will, without hesitation, relate an obvious psychogenic symptom to the falling barometer, while the existence of a psychic conflict seems to him a fantastic abnormality. His love is incontestably rooted in the manifest attractions of the object. In so far as he is normal, he is conspicuously adjusted to positive reality -- conspicuously, because his adjustment is always visible. His ideal is the actual; in this respect he is considerate. He has no ideals related to ideas -- he has, therefore, no sort of ground for maintaining a hostile attitude towards the reality of things and facts.

And this whole conversation about Si is absurd for someone you supposedly think is an ENFP, when there are clearly INxPs and INTJs in this thread that shred your theory to pieces.

I believe Rasofy to be INTP and Infinite Bubble to be INTJ, even if I could see someone like Gingko as questionably INFJ instead of INFP.


I think at some point you just kind of ignore any concrete evidence to your theories. Which does support you being Ni dom. But like in some Ni/Fi loop instead of using that Te, brah.
 

Kalach

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The more I look through this thread, the weirder it gets. Those among you who cannot see the fun side of death and destruction are... odd. There's an almost puritan concern for mortification of the flesh. You can't look away from the dirt.

That is why I say Si. You've deified the concrete, which is what Si does, more or less. Indeed, it does it to the point where Ni cannot exist. Thus and therefore and ergo to boot, Si vs Ni.

Look into it. You'll be glad you did.
 

Kalach

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Infinite Bubble is an INTJ

HAHHAHAH

and gave the best and most logical argument for exactly what I got so emotionally and ethically disturbed about...it's like s/he framed into perfect logic anything I was feeling.

That's what real INTJs do. Maybe your type isn't INTJ.

HAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHA

As for me charging in with real world real world real world ...

I really do think you're describing me having Se, rather than Te:

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, it's the Xe, and the shadow of Nu. For personal growth, you need to become clear.
 

Thalassa

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The more I look through this thread, the weirder it gets. Those among you who cannot see the fun side of death and destruction are... odd. There's an almost puritan concern for mortification of the flesh. You can't look away from the dirt.

That is why I say Si. You've deified the concrete, which is what Si does, more or less. Indeed, it does it to the point where Ni cannot exist. Thus and therefore and ergo to boot, Si vs Ni.

Look into it. You'll be glad you did.

I watch horror movies all the time, so you're wrong about me. I just know the difference between fantasy and reality, and I find nuclear war something too real, and apply my ethics to it.

I spent my entire formative experience with constant references to nuclear war, both political and artistic; when I was in high school some of my older friends hung out at a place called The Fallout Shelter.

I know all of the songs about the Cold War, and it had a huge impact on my personality, to be such an impersonal world event.

It was clearly impressed upon me by someone or something that this wasn't funny, probably the least funny thing possible, and this was real life.

You can't tell people they're weird because they were traumatized as children by U.S. and Soviet propaganda, and the cultural reactions to that propaganda, and then as an adolescent and an adult found sufficient information to prove that yes, all of my worst fears are real, in fact nuclear destruction is even worse than what I imagined, when I see photos from Chernobyl.

Nuclear war isn't Freddy Kruger or the Exorcist, I've always been more frightened of real-life occurring things on the news than of any contrived images of violence, which can be cathartic for me, I've always loved cinematic horror.

Now get off your high horse and acknowledge that there's an INTJ in this thread that used Te better than you did to address this problem.

For you it's some kind of game, and they also think in long-term real world consequences.

Ni is futuristic long-term thinking just as much as anything else. Ne says "what if" and Ni says "it will be this."
 

Rasofy

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Si flashes images of deformed people and, along with baby Fe, tells me that associating an event that is commonly correlated with deaths and deformed people with the word "exciting" is not cool or appropriate.

But rebellious Ne, which is a stronger force, doesn't care at all. It really doesn't give a shit. Kinda like the honey badger, if you catch my drift. It's gonna grab the term 'in a certain light' and squeeze it so hard that some potential will arise (and screw the side effects).

Then Ti will dispassionately check the consistency and... *boom*, figuratively speaking.
 
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