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  1. #11


    It seems about the wisest thing I've heard come from the church, and I use wise in a traditional sense - grand foresight and such.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    If the West is informed by Ancient Greek philosophy, Judaism, Christianity and the Enlightenment, then Westerners are culturally Greek, culturally Judaic, culturally Christian, and culturally Enlightened.

    Or we Westerners are anonymous Greeks, anonymous Jews, anonymous Christians and anonymous sons and daughters of the Enlightenment.

    Very lovely.

  2. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    5 sx


    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Personally I understand that as Erich Fromm does in his own interpreation (or reinterpretation depending on your opinion) of religion as providing an orientation towards life and a subject of devotion, I paraphrase and I'm not very eloquent but its something along those lines, so it could mean that someone without a framework which is explicitly Christian but which is congruent with those beliefs would be saved rather than damned, which makes sense to me.
    That does make sense. Still - what if someone dies before they have adopted such a framework, yet probably would have farther down the road? Again, this goes back to the question of whether a person is inherently "capable" of being saved.

    I love the line at the end of your signature, by the way. It's really beautiful.

    On the subject of belief and whether or not non-belief would be a bar towards salvation, I tend to come back to Meister Eckhart who wrote something about if someone were to die and angels were to strip them of their "life" then if they were unprepared for it and in a state of disbelief about it they would not see them as angels at all but devils, the belief would indeed effect the experience itself. There is another poem about an orange man, who also happens to be pretty sectarian, who dies and goes to heaven discovering that there are papists and popes there he is very disatisfied and becomes a ghost instead, choosing to walk the earth instead because sharing heaven with those people amounts to a personal hell for him, of his own making. Its the same idea.

    Most people who are admently non-believers, as opposed simply to disbelievers or unbelivers (nuanced meanings, I know), I think would hate to be in heaven or God's prescence or any kind of afterflife, dont you think? I dont see that God would want to or would have to torment anyone of that kind because God's simple "being" or "existence" would be sufficient to bother them, for eternity depending on how hard hearted they are about it.
    That's a good point (your last question). Well, I've always gotten the impression that once exposed to the glory of God a person would have no choice but to love him and "enjoy him forever." His goodness would be completely unmistakable; any previous misconceptions about God are completely overridden in his presence, I would think.

    "the belief would indeed effect the experience itself" -- how? wouldn't everyone end up believing, then, causing universal salvation and erasing the need for angels to strip them of their life in the first place?

    or -- is Eckhart saying that if they were Christians during their life but didn't believe what was happening to them at that moment, they would go to hell?

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