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Difference in Fi vs Ti in the conclusion of a god

Azure Flame

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I'm going to compare INTP's and INFP's for a minute.

In my experience, many INTP's, including Einstein (I've heard he's an ENTP... I don't think it really matters though) have eventually come to the conclusion that there is a god, but not one in the christian biblical sense who takes part in the fates of man.

I find INFP's to be more often than not spiritual people with a belief in a god as well, be it a manlike god or an energy.

If left to themselves in meditation for a very long time, do you think an INTP and an INFP would arrive at a similar conclusion of the existence of god? Or do you think both personalities would veer off in completely different directions? In the end, does logic hold any difference over emotion?

Are the conclusions of modern thinkers with the backing of math and science any less sophisticated than that of nomads?
 

Thalassa

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I don't know, the deeper I get into yoga, the more and more I doubt the relevance of certain traits in alignment with personality theory.

For example, the commonly held ridiculous notion that any "flash" of intuition or insight makes you an N...no, I think it makes a whole hell of a lot of females mistype as NFs though, because they haven't heard that many of the most "creepy psychic" people are actually ISFPs, because of a misunderstood, unconscious Ni that presents itself in ominous symbols that actually have something to do with the future (instead of Ni doms who have more conscious Ni and therefore develop coherent long-term visions) ...and that ESFJs have amazing people-reading skills, simply because of their attention to the details of body language and emotional expression.

Intuition in the Jungian sense has less to do with the Psychic Eye Book Shoppe, and "I just knew he was the one!" and more to do with a preference for theory, brainstorming possibilities, etc.

Same I think with conclusions about God. I mean it never ceases to amaze me that some groups of religious people figured things out centuries ago that scientists are just recently "proving." I want to go into this more when I am less tired (it's about my bed time) ... but the problem is the limits of the lens through which the person is looking, and people can shift their lenses...
 

KDude

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I know that Einstein subscribed to the idea of Spinozan god, but we don't know if he did it because he came to same conclusion on his own or because Spinoza (an outside source) simply presented an elegant idea that appealed to Einstein.

Spinoza (and god) aside, one thing we know is that he highly objected to chance. To my mind also, "chance" is not a thing. I can't build a concept out of "nothing". Maybe that's something others would find equally unsettling as well. Even though he sparked off much of quantum theory/mechanics, he wanted an underlying model of the universe that could stastically demonstrate clear cause and effect, etc.. To Max Born, he said "God does not play dice." Maybe his rejection of chance ultimately led his mind to a "First Cause". I think this could appeal to INTPs as well, but maybe some make their peace with "chance". I think that's more of a Ni thing though..
 

Thalassa

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Oh I also just want to mention here that I think that S doms who are N rejecting may be the biggest literalists; I think anyone with a developed N function (including ISxPs and ESxJs with the tertiary, like Jung himself for example) may eventually come to a less literal conclusion; how can I know this? Well, because there are a lot of non-literal religious people in the world, and they can't all fucking be INFPs and INFJs. I think perhaps the worst literalists are both N-rejecting (ISxJs and ESxPs) AND perhaps in many cases poorly educated.

It also has to do with the difference between Eastern and Western thought; Western thinkers, whether religious or atheist, tend to think in either or, black and white, right or wrong, debate and compete types of terms. Western thinkers also over-emphasize the importance of logic now to the point of near absurdity, obscuring more subtle forms of thought. Eastern thought on the other hand is more subtle, emphasizes paradox and duality, as well as compromise and shades of gray.

It also depends on the religion itself and how much it emphasizes a montheistic god, or perhaps takes an agnostic yet spiritual stance.

Read about how Se types experience religious or spirituality in Jung's descriptions, it's really fascinating, usually tied to magical meaning projected on to physical objects (and I do this too, when I was younger I was inexplicably drawn to Catholic rites and paganism though I was raised Protestant Christian, and one of the biggest ways to unlock my mind more spiritually was to engage my body physically through yoga and I still do things like burn different colored candles and carry stones).
 

Standuble

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I am an INFP and I am an atheist. Whilst INTPs could likely rationalise God out of existence much easier than an INFP could the INFP does still have Te to adopt the external logical system which is more prevalent and one which they can value. But it swings both ways, one INFP could ask "man created this building and all these items around me whilst God made none. Does it mean there is no God?" Another one could state "this was all designed so I think everything else in the world must have at least been partially designed too." That's lousy inferior Te for you. I think most INFPs who have a religious belief would orientate more towards spiritualism (seeing the "soul" in the "machine".) On a different note I have known of religious INTPs so they aren't guaranteed atheist or agnostic belief.

So an INFP and an INTP could come to the same conclusion about God or they could not. It's probably just as likely or unlikely as two INFPs or two INTPs coming to the same conclusion.
 

Coriolis

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I don't know, the deeper I get into yoga, the more and more I doubt the relevance of certain traits in alignment with personality theory.

For example, the commonly held ridiculous notion that any "flash" of intuition or insight makes you an N...no, I think it makes a whole hell of a lot of females mistype as NFs though, because they haven't heard that many of the most "creepy psychic" people are actually ISFPs, because of a misunderstood, unconscious Ni that presents itself in ominous symbols that actually have something to do with the future (instead of Ni doms who have more conscious Ni and therefore develop coherent long-term visions) ...and that ESFJs have amazing people-reading skills, simply because of their attention to the details of body language and emotional expression.

Intuition in the Jungian sense has less to do with the Psychic Eye Book Shoppe, and "I just knew he was the one!" and more to do with a preference for theory, brainstorming possibilities, etc.
Yes, Jungian intuition is more like this, though brainstorming is more Ne, and "predicting" more Ni. Having intuitions certainly does not make one N. More accurately, it means one is probably using N, since everyone uses each of the four functions to some degree. It is also possible for other functions to combine in a result that looks like Ni/Ne, much as Te-Se can produce behaviors that look Fe but really are not. I suspect the S-F combination in SFJs works this way in understanding and predicting people.
 

Engineer

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You can't ultimately disprove God, and neither can you ultimately prove that there is one.

This is why, despite our great advance from nomad-stage superstition to the high-tech, rational world of today, the question of God still remains.

So yes and no. Yes, we are better than our nomad ancestors, but no, we still haven't figured out this question once and for all.

Personal input: I'm a theist INTJ. I should be in a museum.
 

WoodsWoman

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Proof disallows room for faith, just as ironclad rules negate the need for real relationship (give and take, conversation, etc.) between people.

I'm an INFP and I believe in God. This God I found via Christianity and call myself a Christian, though some might not accept me as such. I do not live up to my own expectation of what I think I should be as His follower - I am a dark glass

Can I prove God one way or another? No. Proof does not engender belief without faith, and that faith is a gift.
 
W

WALMART

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I would think feelers more likely to come to a poly/pantheist type of conclusion, and a thinker to an omnipotent/present type of deity.


Feelers project diversity and what not while thinkers project their intellectual arrogance.
 

Chaotic Harmony

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I've always struggled with religion... I'm not sure if I'd call myself a polytheist or not, but I definitely have a hard time believing in only one deity. That being said, I think I'm probably more spiritual than religious. I tend to thing my Se is why I feel this way... I've never been good at the whole blind faith thing, I like to be able to see, hear, feel, smell, etc...
 

Antimony

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In my experience, many INTP's, including Einstein (I've heard he's an ENTP... I don't think it really matters though) have eventually come to the conclusion that there is a god, but not one in the christian biblical sense who takes part in the fates of man.

Here has been my spanning thoughts on God since I was a child:

Early years to 6th grade: God exists because I was raised that way, even though I believe in both Adam and Eve and evolution (i.e. Adam and Eve weren't the first but they were- double think).

6th grade: I don't believe in God because of the Holocaust. If God existed, this would not have happened. Becomes Buddhist, meditates, etc.

7th & 8th grade: I really don't know (I'll just keep meditating).

Highschool: learns about agnosticism, realizes that the only truly rational belief is that it is up in the air

College: agnostic leaning towards deist, formulates that God could exist, be he particle or some other non-sentient force. He could also be sentient, and we could all be simulated. We could be derived from aliens.

Aliens. I like that one.

Tl;dr: God is defined by me as something that is outside of our comprehension or current knowledge and understanding, be it sentient or not.
 

Such Irony

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I'm an agnostic. My rationale for this:

Scientific reasons for the existence of things: Big Bang and evolution. Also no scientific proof for the existence of God

If God is truly a loving and merciful God, why does God allow bad things to happen? Things like war, natural disasters killing thousands of innocent people, etc. Makes me lose faith in a God. Also if God was a truly loving God would God still love and accept people who don't believe God rather than letting them burn in hell?


I think the first is more Ti and the second is more Fi. Both play a big part in my agnostic stance.
 

the state i am in

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T types focus on what can be concretely measured. F types focus on what connects everything.
 

/DG/

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If God is truly a loving and merciful God, why does God allow bad things to happen? Things like war, natural disasters killing thousands of innocent people, etc. Makes me lose faith in a God. Also if God was a truly loving God would God still love and accept people who don't believe God rather than letting them burn in hell?

This is a bit unrelated to the topic, but I'd like to address this.

I really dislike it when people say this. The existence of a deity does not change depending on whether or not they are good or evil. Do you not believe in things you do not like? I hate cancer, so should I not believe in it? This sort of thinking is very illogical and unfortunately all too common.

There are other reasons people may logically come to not believe in a supreme being, but this is not one of them.
 

Southern Kross

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I'm a INFP and I subscribe to the God of Einstein/Spinoza. :shrug:
 

Ene

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I'm not an INFP or an INTP, that I know of anyways. Still, these are interesting questions, so I'll try to give them interesting answers.


If left to themselves in meditation for a very long time, do you think an INTP and an INFP would arrive at a similar conclusion of the existence of god?

My answer to question 1: I think it is inconclusive.

And now, my reasoning behind that 1st answer, which also answers Question 2
Or do you think both personalities would veer off in completely different directions?
:
Because, even within the framework of MBTI, two INFPs may come to different conclusion while two INTPs may also come to different conclusions, howbeit, using the same process to arrive at it. One of each may come to the same conclusion or to a different conclusion. And here is my response for Question 3:[QUOTE] In the end, does logic hold any difference over emotion?[/QUOTE]Faith isn't about emotion and it isn't about logic. It's more about the ability to see what can't be seen. It is the substance of hope and it is the evidence of things not seen. In a very narrow sense, anyone who plans for the next day has a type of faith. There is no logical proof that a person will be here the next day. There is only a probability, but a probability is not a certainty and it is a certainty that all humans die; therefore it is a cetainty that one day a person will be making plans for a day when he or she will not be here. Still, we make plans. We plan birthday parties and get-togethers, we plan to finish school and to get a job. We plan, therefore we hope and if, according the Paul the Apostle, we hope, we therefore have faith which is the "substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen." Whether or not Fi or Ti would lead one to this understanding, is therefore, I believe, an unanswerable question. People will still try to answer it because some of us want to make it appear like we're smart, some like we're spiritual, some like we're just so "full of ourselves" and some will just "wonder" it to death. haha. [I am just being sarcastic with that last sentence, so please folks, don't get all offended and what-not. Human nature is funny and if we don't laugh at ourselves, who will?]

Are the conclusions of modern thinkers with the backing of math and science any less sophisticated than that of nomads?

They're not less sophisticated, just a lot fancier and we tend to think we're smarter than we really are. On one hand, the conclusions of each generation disprove the assumptions of previous ones while many conclusions from past generations often show a superiority to modern conclusions. What I'm saying is that all of the logic in the world, all of the advancements in science and technology cannot prove or disprove the existence of a diety. If God is real, then it stands to reason that he would be beyond measuring, otherwise, he wouldn't be a god.

Personal note: As an afterthought, if any cognitive funciton could lead us to faith, I think it would be Ni. Perhaps Ne could, too, theoretically.
 

Salomé

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I'm going to compare INTP's and INFP's for a minute.

In my experience, many INTP's, including Einstein (I've heard he's an ENTP... I don't think it really matters though) have eventually come to the conclusion that there is a god, but not one in the christian biblical sense who takes part in the fates of man.

I find INFP's to be more often than not spiritual people with a belief in a god as well, be it a manlike god or an energy.
Your experience is apparently severely limited. Visit INTPc for a broader perspective. Belief in a creator is not typical of INTPs. Also, Einstein/Spinoza/whoever are products of their time as much as products of their type.

If left to themselves in meditation for a very long time, do you think an INTP and an INFP would arrive at a similar conclusion of the existence of god?
No.
Or do you think both personalities would veer off in completely different directions?
Since they tend to value different things, it's quite likely.
In the end, does logic hold any difference over emotion?
non-sensical.

Are the conclusions of modern thinkers with the backing of math and science any less sophisticated than that of nomads?
wut?

That sounds a heck of a lot more like S/N to me.

It does, but at the same time, I know what he means. (For once)
 

Stanton Moore

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I’m often surprised by the number of people who claim to know so many of the rarest types like INFP and INTP. I am one of those, more or less, and despite a desire to know them and a natural affinity, I can only claim to have ever met a small number, and so I don’t know enough to make generalizations of my own. So I find the very thesis, specious, yo. Lol
Antonio Damasio has written that emotion underpins every action and belief, and that it is a critical factor in all decision making. If this hypothesis is true (and I believe it is), then the distraction between Fi and Ti is a misleading.
 

Such Irony

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This is a bit unrelated to the topic, but I'd like to address this.

I really dislike it when people say this. The existence of a deity does not change depending on whether or not they are good or evil. Do you not believe in things you do not like? I hate cancer, so should I not believe in it? This sort of thinking is very illogical and unfortunately all too common.

There are other reasons people may logically come to not believe in a supreme being, but this is not one of them.

Well for awhile, I did toy with the idea that God is not always good, contrary to my religous upbringing.

And yes, there are things I don't deny, even things I don't like. Like cancer and war and death.

I should have phrased what I said better.
 
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