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Objectivism

Lark

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simple, giving feels good. most people who are well off feel some compulsion to give something back and be generous (I know I love to be generous when I can afford to be, and you don't get more sinister or selfish than me without becoming a gargoyle). doing what's in your rational best interest doesn't always involve being stingy like most people seem to think it does. money is great, but it's utility has a point of diminishing returns, so as long as it doesn't effect your lifestyle, who cares if you give or not? lol I think most rich people think this way

PS: self interest doesn't mean "me and only me!" like people seem to think it does. it means "me first". you place yourself, ie, your own happiness, well being, long term best interests, comfort, health and success as the top priority in your life.

What you're describing here is the classical liberal idea of self-interest and altruism, when people have enough they will naturally be inclined towards sharing.

Its why Adam Smith believed that all the problems in the economy were a result of shortages and maxing out production would resolve it all, although it has to be said that he only considered self-interest as a legitimate motor in this because it would ultimately serve social ends, ie "not from benefice" that one person meets anothers needs.

Spencer and others took up the idea of altruism after that and their argument was that altruism discriminates the most between deserving and undeserving of relief from poverty or need and that it is also sufficient.

Modern liberals, and pretty much all politicians, are convinced of that now, although some of their supporters may believe it is necessary but not sufficient and also that there are some grounds for indiscriminate relief of poverty or needs where ample socially produced wealth exists.

Better than any of those ideas I think mutual aid and reciprocity, or even some sorts of paternalistic authority, and I also think that those ideas are as much an objective reality as self-interest balanced with altruism. The only difference is while Rand's philosophy is entirely obligation free those are not.

I'd also say that Rand's philosophy appeals to the present day consumerist and neurotic or narcissistic age pretty well, in fact its little different from the excuses any addict or alcoholic is going to repeatedly come up with for their behaviour.
 

tkae.

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What you're describing here is the classical liberal idea of self-interest and altruism, when people have enough they will naturally be inclined towards sharing.

Its why Adam Smith believed that all the problems in the economy were a result of shortages and maxing out production would resolve it all, although it has to be said that he only considered self-interest as a legitimate motor in this because it would ultimately serve social ends, ie "not from benefice" that one person meets anothers needs.

Spencer and others took up the idea of altruism after that and their argument was that altruism discriminates the most between deserving and undeserving of relief from poverty or need and that it is also sufficient.

Modern liberals, and pretty much all politicians, are convinced of that now, although some of their supporters may believe it is necessary but not sufficient and also that there are some grounds for indiscriminate relief of poverty or needs where ample socially produced wealth exists.

Better than any of those ideas I think mutual aid and reciprocity, or even some sorts of paternalistic authority, and I also think that those ideas are as much an objective reality as self-interest balanced with altruism. The only difference is while Rand's philosophy is entirely obligation free those are not.

I'd also say that Rand's philosophy appeals to the present day consumerist and neurotic or narcissistic age pretty well, in fact its little different from the excuses any addict or alcoholic is going to repeatedly come up with for their behaviour.

No, altruism is a social attitude that emphasizes sacrifice on behalf of others. In an altruistic society, much like in a socialist one, you're expected to give some of what you have to others. In contrast, a capitalist society that fosters an atmosphere of charity promotes that you 1.) aren't expected to give anything at all and 2.) you can give any amount -- large or small -- should you make the choice to donate.

The freedom of choice allows charity to be more meaningful than altruism because it's a conscious, intentional act.

It's the difference between me giving you a $10 tip after a meal because I thought you were a good waiter and a $10 tip being a policy of the restaurant that I'm expected to follow as a patron.
 

Mal12345

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No, altruism is a social attitude that emphasizes sacrifice on behalf of others. In an altruistic society, much like in a socialist one, you're expected to give some of what you have to others. In contrast, a capitalist society that fosters an atmosphere of charity promotes that you 1.) aren't expected to give anything at all and 2.) you can give any amount -- large or small -- should you make the choice to donate.

The freedom of choice allows charity to be more meaningful than altruism because it's a conscious, intentional act.

It's the difference between me giving you a $10 tip after a meal because I thought you were a good waiter and a $10 tip being a policy of the restaurant that I'm expected to follow as a patron.

It's worse than that. It's as if the $10 tip were the policy of a restaurant that was granted IRS powers to seize your property and throw you in jail.
 

Pseudo

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Because charity is, and historically has been, the single most effective way a community provides for itself. It understands the needs of the people in the community and isn't hindered by a federal prescription. Capitalism is an economic concept, not necessarily a social one. Just because we're cutthroat in business doesn't mean we can't be charitable in the way we spend our fortunes.

People also forget the freedom and importance of persuasion in a capitalist society. It's not WRONG to be want to give your money to a Holocaust memorial after seeing Schindler's List, for example, or wanting to send money to the Peace Corps for people in Afghanistan. She doesn't say it's wrong to give to others, in fact she supported her husband with the income from her novels. Ayn Rand was very clear that if it makes you happy, it's perfectly natural to give to others. If a loved one needs a kidney transplant and you can be a donor, it's absolutely natural to want to do it. In her example, if your husband needs a kidney transplant and your neighbor's husband needs a kidney transplant, it's "altruistic" to give to your neighbor's husband because giving to your own husband would be selfish in the sense that it makes you happy while your neighbor suffers the loss of her husband. In that scenario, selfishness is providing for the person who makes you happy over someone you honestly don't care about it. It's not being TRULY selfish and keeping your kidneys to go out and spend the transplant money on a night of drinking and partying at a strip club. So it's not that you have to be completely, 100% selfish and not care about anyone at all ever. Just like she goes out to redefine selfishness as the natural self-interest we have in our own condition and survival, selfish love is love that makes us truly happy. So she just argues against altruism, against the social pressures that you HAVE to do those things. If you're persuaded by something to do it, then it's completely okay to do it.

In fact, there's greater freedom for those sorts of things because there isn't red tape to fight through in order to make charitable donations. But there will always be people who are parents of or friends of or relatives of mentally handicapped people, so there will always be a capable fraction of the population to fight on behalf of their interests. And, by persuading others, they can receive donations to help care for more people. It's viral that way. It doesn't need to be written into a tax code, right?

It's partially because I AM such a firm believer in the power of persuasion that I have faith in the general public. Or even companies. There are a number of companies who gain business because they can advertise their own donations. Dawn for example, and their commercials about helping to save animals during oil spills. And don't even try to tell me Sarah McLachlan hasn't raked in donations from her commercials for the ASPCA lol

Just because capitalism creates a more active marketplace doesn't mean we can't be persuaded to share some of what we have with others. We're far more likely to spread our own wealth around when we don't feel pressured by the government to pay taxes that are already allocated for other people.

But even if it isn't completely effective, neither are other methods. Taking mentally handicapped people who don't have caregivers and throwing them into public mental health facilities is practically inhumane. The conditions there are as bad as prisons :shock:

I'm not arguing that all objectivists are selfish, Im saying that in her system being selfish is okay. If I didn't care about anyone around you that would be perfectly acceptable in an objectivist system because any forced sense of obligation is wrong.


If charity is such a natural way of solving problems how is it that these systems ever arose in our government? If persuasive family members are enough then why do these plights still exist. Just think of all the people who do nothing in response to dawn and sarah maclachlan commercials. Feel bad, do nothing. Objectivism says that that is perfectly fine because you should not be sacrificing yourself for others. You can but you don't need too.

IN her interview with donahue , talking about "Subnormal" children and how schools and buses for them brings the rest of society down. She even said something akin to what you end up with is a half idiot that can maybe read and right. Her idea was that society should support the gifted and that "subnormals" should be dealt with by their parents and if necessary by charities but that the first duty is to the "most gifted". She says that it is "Alright" to help that child but not at expense of your own child (by which she means utilizing resources that could have gone to them for other children). It's not a charitable worldview it's a selfish one. Good will is acceptable, but it isn't encouraged.

Rand saw the mentally handicapped as basically useless and perhaps mental health institutions would be better if we all supported them rather than just leaving it up to the affected people to deal with the problem. I guess my beef with Objectivism is the Self as the center of the universe and all other problems being filtered through how they affect you. That doesn't gel with me at all.
 

Pseudo

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Also, for clarification, don't base your opinions of Ayn Rand's beliefs from Tea Baggers and Paul Ryan. She was just as much against half the things Paul Ryan put into his budget reform as she was against the welfare reforms pushed by Democrats. His plan is just corporate welfare, which is equally bad, if not worse, than social welfare. Where social welfare amounts of enforced altruism, corporate welfare is a cancer to the free market system, which was one of the core concepts she argued for.

So like the majority of Republicans, he's corrupted the definition of a valid concept, just like Michelle Bachmann and Rick Santorum have corrupted "small government" to mean governments that are big enough to pass legislation against marriage equality and abortion.

That's the exact OPPOSITE of what a small government is. A small government doesn't get involved in the issue AT ALL. Just like a free market isn't touched AT ALL by the government, neither regulation nor corporate welfare.



I base my opinions of Rand on Rand. I don't like what she says.
 

Pseudo

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simple, giving feels good. most people who are well off feel some compulsion to give something back and be generous (I know I love to be generous when I can afford to be, and you don't get more sinister or selfish than me without becoming a gargoyle). doing what's in your rational best interest doesn't always involve being stingy like most people seem to think it does. money is great, but it's utility has a point of diminishing returns, so as long as it doesn't effect your lifestyle, who cares if you give or not? lol I think most rich people think this way

PS: self interest doesn't mean "me and only me!" like people seem to think it does. it means "me first". you place yourself, ie, your own happiness, well being, long term best interests, comfort, health and success as the top priority in your life.



If it feels so good why doesn't everyone give instead of buying large houses and PS3's?



The idea that "me first" is an acceptable way to live when you are one of 7 billion doesn't make sense to me. Why should you trump others especially when in the western world we live such relatively luxurious lives.

The charitable world of "me first.....
 

Elfboy

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If it feels so good why doesn't everyone give instead of buying large houses and PS3's?
because large houses and PS3s feel good too. when you make lots of money, you can have a large house, a PS3 AND give to people. money is power and when you have power you can have everything

The idea that "me first" is an acceptable way to live when you are one of 7 billion doesn't make sense to me. Why should you trump others especially when in the western world we live such relatively luxurious lives.
The charitable world of "me first.....
because the main point of life is to do what you want and enjoy it. why would I spend time giving stuff to and caring for people I don't even know when I can have an awesome lifestyle with plenty of adventure, comfort and nice stuff? why would I want to suffer for the purpose of serving people?

PS: are you sure you're So last?
 

Mal12345

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If it feels so good why doesn't everyone give instead of buying large houses and PS3's?



The idea that "me first" is an acceptable way to live when you are one of 7 billion doesn't make sense to me. Why should you trump others especially when in the western world we live such relatively luxurious lives.

The charitable world of "me first.....

Because Rand was a black-and-white thinker, it had to be either one or the other. She would argue that a society that is half selfish and half altruist cannot survive, and she would cite the failures and hypocrisies of the mixed economic system. She believed that the alternative to freedom was dictatorship, not half freedom and half dictatorship. And she believed that altruism was the corollary of dictatorship. She believed it for a good reason: Ayn Rand watched as her beautiful Russia fell to a horrible dictatorship based on the altruistic premises and promises of its leaders.
 

Mal12345

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I base my opinions of Rand on Rand. I don't like what she says.

No. You don't like what she concludes, while ignoring the arguments she gave for her conclusions.
 

Pseudo

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because large houses and PS3s feel good too. when you make lots of money, you can have a large house, a PS3 AND give to people. money is power and when you have power you can have everything


because the main point of life is to do what you want and enjoy it. why would I spend time giving stuff to and caring for people I don't even know when I can have an awesome lifestyle with plenty of adventure, comfort and nice stuff? why would I want to suffer for the purpose of serving people?

PS: are you sure you're So last?



Everything you have said underscores why The idea of leaving helping to poor the charity worries me.


I don't think you need to be an so to have concern for other human beings.
 

Pseudo

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No. You don't like what she concludes, while ignoring the arguments she gave for her conclusions.

You no that's not correct. We had a whole thread of discussing her rationale. I don't like how she thinks.
 

tkae.

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I'm not arguing that all objectivists are selfish, Im saying that in her system being selfish is okay. If I didn't care about anyone around you that would be perfectly acceptable in an objectivist system because any forced sense of obligation is wrong.


If charity is such a natural way of solving problems how is it that these systems ever arose in our government? If persuasive family members are enough then why do these plights still exist. Just think of all the people who do nothing in response to dawn and sarah maclachlan commercials. Feel bad, do nothing. Objectivism says that that is perfectly fine because you should not be sacrificing yourself for others. You can but you don't need too.

IN her interview with donahue , talking about "Subnormal" children and how schools and buses for them brings the rest of society down. She even said something akin to what you end up with is a half idiot that can maybe read and right. Her idea was that society should support the gifted and that "subnormals" should be dealt with by their parents and if necessary by charities but that the first duty is to the "most gifted". She says that it is "Alright" to help that child but not at expense of your own child (by which she means utilizing resources that could have gone to them for other children). It's not a charitable worldview it's a selfish one. Good will is acceptable, but it isn't encouraged.

Rand saw the mentally handicapped as basically useless and perhaps mental health institutions would be better if we all supported them rather than just leaving it up to the affected people to deal with the problem. I guess my beef with Objectivism is the Self as the center of the universe and all other problems being filtered through how they affect you. That doesn't gel with me at all.

How did these laws get passed?

Persuasive family members.

So if they were persuasive enough to get legislation passed providing aid to the mentally handicapped, why is it so unreasonable that the same efforts could go towards helping to established charities that do exactly the same thing? The primary difference between government assistance and charities is that charities look after their own particular interest while government assistance is subject to budget cuts during debt crises like the one we're in.

Would a NPO have to worry about being on the chopping block to keep the military spending from dipping too low and weakening our own defense capabilities?

And while she was a bit too blunt in the way she said it, she had a point. It's already a losing situation when a child is born with a mental handicap. It completely devastates the lives of the parents, and while I don't agree that they're less than human like she bordered on suggesting, it certainly doesn't make any sense to set the same goals for them that are set for everybody else, and it ISN'T right for one parent to neglect their own children for the sake of another child, no matter the situation.

No communist country (and none of the socialist countries for that matter) have found a better solution to the issue of special needs. But even Ayn Rand's system is better than what happened in the countries of communist traditions. Even people who were physically "inferior" were dismissed as being embarrassments to the nation. Those types of systems inevitably leaned back on nationalist archetypes of capable workers that were mentally and physically superior than other nations. The disabled and mentally handicapped weren't just viewed as "subnormal", they were treated as subhuman and seen as burdens on the state.

Centralized systems don't make the issue better miraculously, they whitewash it with backwards rhetoric.

Nonprofits organizations are far superior to both that situation and the situation of budget cuts from financial crunches.

If it feels so good why doesn't everyone give instead of buying large houses and PS3's?

The idea that "me first" is an acceptable way to live when you are one of 7 billion doesn't make sense to me. Why should you trump others especially when in the western world we live such relatively luxurious lives.

The charitable world of "me first.....

Because we're self-oriented creatures by nature. We each have an individual reality, we aren't part of a hive mind. It's why Descartes' groundbreaking contribution was "I am", not "We are."

We look after our own concerns and the concerns of our most loved ones first and foremost. Charity feels good, but so does a good meal, a new car, and a vacation. The freedom to choose makes everybody happier, rather than an enforced contribution to a government charity which isn't very effective for the reasons listed above and, by depriving us of our own security from the perspective of a taxpayer, makes us more conscious about how we spend our money. And when we get more conscious of how we spend our money, our natural instinct is to turn inward and spend in ways that secure our current lifestyles and set up security for the future.

Which happens anyways, but is even more potent when we already know taxes are high in order to contribute towards the needs of others. From that perspective, if we're already paying into a system to take care of others, why donate more money to help anybody else? Why be nice to others when we've already paid for part of their assistance?

Except in a socialist system where taxes are manageable and government assistance completely covers the needs of those who are struggling, which is a great thing. Except that it's paying for things on a credit card without any kind of realistic way to pay for it in the future. Our dessert today for our dieting tomorrow.

That's why so many European nations are collapsing and the entire Eurozone about to collapse. Too many nations set up socialized systems without any way to pay for it, and now that their economies are buckling under the pressure of the debt they're beginning to blame each other instead of realizing that it's their own faults.

And who's suffering from the austerity measures? The poor and the disabled who the systems were set up to benefit from the very beginning. It's short-sightedness.

So I'm not saying Ayn Rand has all of the answers, but her answers are more realistic and more manageable than the answers of other systems. Systems of government inherently forget to account for the realistic actions of human beings and set things up based on ideals. It's what's also wrong with most economic theories, and why behavioral economics is making such an important impact on economic theory that covers the gaps of all the major schools (except for Austrian, which blatantly points out the illogic of human beings and was the first to say that you couldn't put human action into a theory with any accuracy).

You can set up a system that works on paper and says how a person SHOULD live their life, but we're all individuals, and we won't necessarily act that way. So setting up a system based on an ideal has to account for the flexibility that will occur when each individual citizen lives their lives the way they wanted. The only answer is to back off the communist approach and return to something more sensible or to crack down on individuals like in a Stalinist regime. Either way, the loss in effectiveness of the political theory increases proportional to the stress placed on how each individual should live.

That's why free markets and free societies are functionally the most adaptable of all theories. They have the most amount of space built into their to absorb the shock of economic downturns, social change, technological advances, etc...

In that sense, I consider Ayn Rand's philosophy, while by no means perfect, to be the most applicable to us as self-oriented humans. By realizing that we all have the natural instinct to secure ourselves before we secure others, our society is strengthened at the atomic level, and slack can be picked up as needed, rather than a system where a single failure can influence cause all of the poor and disabled to be impacted at once.

That's ultimately the core of it. We can't help others if we need help ourselves. Like in airplanes. Put on your own oxygen mask before you put on your neighbors =P

And if he needs one, don't try to put it on him because he can do it better than you. Just like we can each put on our own pants better than other people can put on our pants for us. Who knows their situation and what it needs better than the person experiencing it?
 

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Everything you have said underscores why The idea of leaving helping to poor the charity worries me.
I'm Sp dom, enneagram 7 and have a double Id tritype, most people are not like me. capitalism works partially because some people are FJ 2w1s who get a kick out of helping people. the point is, if you want to help people (and trust me, plenty of people do) you can do so, if you don't want to, you don't have to (though in a capitalist society one attains wealth through high productivity and wise allocation of resources, both of which help the economy and thus everyone involved in it without any extra giving)

I don't think you need to be an so to have concern for other human beings.
the Social instinct concerns itself with the larger sphere of the group or community. they commonly say and think things like "no man is an island" "what can I do to contribute to my community?" "what are the social/humanitarian implications of this decision?" putting the needs of the group before one's individual desires is a strong indicator of Social somewhere in the first two stackings.
I also have difficulty seeing you as an Sp dom because Sp doms just get the idea of "me first". not that Sp doms are heartless or uncaring (though, frankly, Sp 5s usually are), but we are driven to get our own needs met (at least basic ones like safety, comfort, financial security and health). the concept of taking care of one's self first is instinctually ingrained in the Sp dom (especially Sp 5w6. they are they Scrooge's of the enneagram)

anyway, if you have more questions about that you can message me, I have no intention of performing an unsolicited type inquisition.
 

Mal12345

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I'm Sp dom, enneagram 7 and have a double Id tritype, most people are not like me. capitalism works partially because some people are FJ 2w1s who get a kick out of helping people. the point is, if you want to help people (and trust me, plenty of people do) you can do so, if you don't want to, you don't have to (though in a capitalist society one attains wealth through high productivity and wise allocation of resources,

That last is one good reason why having a thread on Objectivism on this forum won't teach anybody about Rand's philosophy.
 

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That last is one good reason why having a thread on Objectivism on this forum won't teach anybody about Rand's philosophy.

exactly. if people were not naturally inclined to want to help people Ayn Rand's theory would not be nearly as unpopular as it is. giving back is a natural extension of self interest for the majority of people who have made the decision to prioritize their own personal satisfaction as their most important objective.
 

Mal12345

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exactly. if people were not naturally inclined to want to help people Ayn Rand's theory would not be nearly as unpopular as it is. giving back is a natural extension of self interest for the majority of people who have made the decision to prioritize their own personal satisfaction as their most important objective.

In simpler terms, there is no natural contradiction between self-interest and giving to charity.

But I'm pointing out that Objectivism is not about the acquisition of wealth, as you stated, but the creation of wealth. That's why I stated that people like [MENTION=16048]Pseudo[/MENTION] can't learn about Objectivism from any thread on this forum and used your comment as an example.

There is a good reason for pointing out this distinction between acquisition and creation of wealth. At least some anti-American sentiment around the world is based on the falsehood that America acquired its wealth primarily through raiding the natural resources of other countries. That is acquiring wealth. But soon we would simply consume what we have acquired. People who criticize the US on this basis (which you are furthering) don't understand that innovation is the key, not acquisition.
 

Pseudo

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How did these laws get passed?

Persuasive family members.

So if they were persuasive enough to get legislation passed providing aid to the mentally handicapped, why is it so unreasonable that the same efforts could go towards helping to established charities that do exactly the same thing? The primary difference between government assistance and charities is that charities look after their own particular interest while government assistance is subject to budget cuts during debt crises like the one we're in.

Individuals and therefore charities are also subject to changes in the economy. Also, charities would vulnerable to things like the death of a particularly large donor or influential "persuasive advocate", People deciding to follow their own self interest more in one given year or waning trendiness of their cause.


And while she was a bit too blunt in the way she said it, she had a point. It's already a losing situation when a child is born with a mental handicap. It completely devastates the lives of the parents, and while I don't agree that they're less than human like she bordered on suggesting, it certainly doesn't make any sense to set the same goals for them that are set for everybody else, and it ISN'T right for one parent to neglect their own children for the sake of another child, no matter the situation.

I'm not suggesting we set the same goals for mental handicapped people that we set for the average student but I think that there is a middle ground between that and categorizing them as not able to contribute to society. I think in all of our interaction thus far you assume that I have and extreme opposite opinion to everything she's saying. I don't. I don't think everyone is going to be exactly equal in ability. What I do disagree with is judge a persons value by what they can give you/others. Which spills over into the idea of judging a cause by how it affects you or how you are affected by the people it affects.




Because we're self-oriented creatures by nature. We each have an individual reality, we aren't part of a hive mind. It's why Descartes' groundbreaking contribution was "I am", not "We are."

The interconnectedness of humans beings is the basis for civilization. We have individual experiences of a shared reality.

We look after our own concerns and the concerns of our most loved ones first and foremost. Charity feels good, but so does a good meal, a new car, and a vacation. The freedom to choose makes everybody happier, rather than an enforced contribution to a government charity which isn't very effective for the reasons listed above and, by depriving us of our own security from the perspective of a taxpayer, makes us more conscious about how we spend our money. And when we get more conscious of how we spend our money, our natural instinct is to turn inward and spend in ways that secure our current lifestyles and set up security for the future.

This is what I fail to understand. How you can reconcile a recognition that people will always look after themselves first with the theory that given more freedom people with do more the help others., rather than simply feeling freer to do more for themselves. It's the feeling of "duty", that Rand so hated, to help the people around you. Something that ideally would exist regardless of conditions. In this Objectivist system their is no duty, It's all based in the will of the individual. Which brings me to what I'm stated before. My main problem with objectivism being that doing/being good to others is acceptable but not necessary.


In that sense, I consider Ayn Rand's philosophy, while by no means perfect, to be the most applicable to us as self-oriented humans. By realizing that we all have the natural instinct to secure ourselves before we secure others, our society is strengthened at the atomic level, and slack can be picked up as needed, rather than a system where a single failure can influence cause all of the poor and disabled to be impacted at once.

That's ultimately the core of it. We can't help others if we need help ourselves. Like in airplanes. Put on your own oxygen mask before you put on your neighbors =P

And if he needs one, don't try to put it on him because he can do it better than you. Just like we can each put on our own pants better than other people can put on our pants for us. Who knows their situation and what it needs better than the person experiencing it?


Do we have that natural instinct? I would argue "not always". Human beings show a willingness to put others before themselves, their children, their spouse, their extended families, their country, even strangers sometimes. Think of rescue workers would endanger themselves to help people they've yet to meet. I don't accept that humans are ruled or should be ruled by self interest alone.

Beyond that it's more a question of having already put on your air mask and then deciding if you care enough to help the person next to you, if it benefits you, if you can afford to or if you need to conserve every bit of your energy for what may lie ahead.

What if you knew what your need were and they were for some one to assist you. what if you asked someone what their need were?
 
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