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If meditation was a norm for everyone from the age of eight

Siúil a Rúin

when the colors fade
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There's been a lot of attempts at secular morality, I dont believe that morality or moral philosophy requires secularisation to be honest. I see that as part of an agenda to drive religion out of the world and eliminate it, much in the way that religion once did to atheistic or secular beliefs. Which is a shame...
This is not my impression of what the Dalai Lama is attempting because he certainly does not wish to do away with Buddhism. Secular morality based on scientific investigation of how the human mind processes negative emotion and violence can form a baseline to bring people together, on top of which people can add their own ideas about marriage, family, sexuality, dress, speech, diet, etc. The practicalities of living are not addressed so much as an understanding of healthy psychology and human interaction to minimize violence. I think it could help contrasting religious systems live in better harmony with one another, and my impression is that is more along the lines of how the Dalai Lama is thinking.
 

Lark

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This is not my impression of what the Dalai Lama is attempting because he certainly does not wish to do away with Buddhism. Secular morality based on scientific investigation of how the human mind processes negative emotion and violence can form a baseline to bring people together, on top of which people can add their own ideas about marriage, family, sexuality, dress, speech, diet, etc. The practicalities of living are not addressed so much as an understanding of healthy psychology and human interaction to minimize violence. I think it could help contrasting religious systems live in better harmony with one another, and my impression is that is more along the lines of how the Dalai Lama is thinking.

That sounds less like morality and more like the evidence base of most social work or social care practice to be honest, I've been trained in stuff like this and I do wish it was more widespread.
 

sprinkles

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This is not my impression of what the Dalai Lama is attempting because he certainly does not wish to do away with Buddhism. Secular morality based on scientific investigation of how the human mind processes negative emotion and violence can form a baseline to bring people together, on top of which people can add their own ideas about marriage, family, sexuality, dress, speech, diet, etc. The practicalities of living are not addressed so much as an understanding of healthy psychology and human interaction to minimize violence. I think it could help contrasting religious systems live in better harmony with one another, and my impression is that is more along the lines of how the Dalai Lama is thinking.

This is why I stress meditation for the purpose of internal clarity, and less for some kind of spiritual euphoria high.

And by internal clarity I mean psychological transparency. One being able to see their self precisely and how they fit into the world and also the dynamic system of the world and how these relate to each other without muddying it up with delusions and biases.

That's a transcendence in itself. Not transcendence as in reaching some highly overrated spiritual plane that rises above everything else, but transcendence as in rising above the fog and being clear about yourself with no illusions, misgivings, false representations or denials.

I call it the no-bullshit approach.
 
W

WhoCares

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Would it eliminate all violence in the world?

Probably not, but we'd see a lot less tantrum's in the supermarket. But then that's probably what he was getting at anyway, most of us never learn to master our emotions. Especially in the first world countries you see a lot of adults pretty much behaving like 5yr olds when things don't go their way. People aren't taught to do anything in our society except have knee jerk reactions to things they don't like then piss and moan about it until someone comes and fixes it just like mommy used to. On the other hand if we were all taught to find that centre of calm instead of screaming like a toddler then I'm sure a lot of arguments would never escalate to the point of violence.
 

Maou

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Meditation and violence have zero correlation. Some people have natural dispositions for violence, others do not. Always a nature + nurture aspect. Sure, you can nurture people into being non violent, but we all know how effective that is on the large scale. It is bound to fail, just like we can't stop parents from abusing their children.
 

Earl Grey

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The quick impression I have from reading through the first two pages of this thread is that people have no idea what meditation is, or at least the kind the Dalai Lama means. The word 'meditation' here seems to be used as an umbrella term for all types, even prayer, when in practice that is not often true. Most people pray for ceremony and with little reflection, things that are very much NOT what meditation is. How many of you have reflected on prayer, instead of simply repeating it because that's what the pastor is saying/because that's what the next line is on the book? Prayer, unfortunately, is not always, or does not always include reflection, much less meditation.

Two people on the first page mentioned things that boil down to 'depends on the definition', and that much is also true. In my opinion, if one follows the form meditation that the Dalai Lama speaks, the statement in the OP would tend to be true. The next question then becomes "What exactly is meditation/what is meant by OP when they say, 'meditation'?" - the OP fails to elaborate on this (and judging from how they equate two absolutely different types of meditation, I am certain they themselves do not know the intricacies of it), and I don't want to give a crash course on it, so I will not elaborate on the definitions here, rather the overall idea of what meditation, in general, is. That being said, several sects of Buddhism encourage skills/tendencies that can easily be adopted into secular societies/beliefs (or lack thereof), done entirely without needless ceremony or worship. They frown upon those who try to 'spread' Buddhism like it's a product. Among these skills are meditation.

The results of meditation hinges heavily on the individual. You must, on some level, want or at least not be opposed to a result that would disincline you from violence, or at least accept that whatever the results may be, it may. It is absolutely pointless to go into something that has its own specific goal, when internally, you disagree with it. Meditation is heavily internal and subjective, and when you cannot reconcile which result it is you want within yourself, you can meditate for 50 years with no result. This is true not just for meditation, but anything else in life. If violence is what you want, absolutely, at the core, no amount of beating it into yourself with any method (literally and figuratively) would change your inner thoughts and wants.

In my opinion at least, meditation isn't a result, it is a vehicle. It is a knife, so to speak, and the method and end result is up to those who wield it. Meditation (in general, not any specific one) does not make you peaceful/holy/etc necessarily, but it can help you get there, and it is not the only thing that can. Personally, I would not recommend it for absolutely anyone, either. If you want something, you must pick whatever best/efficient method it is for yourself, and that may or may not be meditation.

Proper meditation, (Buddhist or not, but this is also what Buddhism supports), encourages practices and disciplines of mindfulness and honesty towards the self (among other things)- things that can help individuals to sift through their more negative tendencies and equip them to confront and change them during their lucid, non-meditative states. It is not a stretch to imagine that those skills, methods, especially with regular reinforcement, could help an individual in 'retraining' themselves to do, or see things in different ways, and develop the discipline, fortitude, and clarity of mind to go for it.

In my POV and experience, and as someone who had been born and raised into the Buddhist religion, it is ironically Western society that has sold the 'meditate to transform!' shtick that is unfortunately severely reductionist, simplistic, and misleading, no more than a verbal clickbait for people to flock to them. This is absolutely frowned upon in Buddhist practice and I disdain even other Buddhists who fall for/do this.

All in all; my take is to be educated on what it is you're putting in your mind, just as to be physically healthy, it is important to be educated on what you are putting into your own body. Understand what it is and do not be rushed by peer pressure, or anything else. These are the building block foundations to becoming the kind of person you want to be, meditation or not, violent or not.
 

Coriolis

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The quick impression I have from reading through the first two pages of this thread is that people have no idea what meditation is, or at least the kind the Dalai Lama means. The word 'meditation' here seems to be used as an umbrella term for all types, even prayer, when in practice that is not often true. Most people pray for ceremony and with little reflection, things that are very much NOT what meditation is. How many of you have reflected on prayer, instead of simply repeating it because that's what the pastor is saying/because that's what the next line is on the book? Prayer, unfortunately, is not always, or does not always include reflection, much less meditation.

Two people on the first page mentioned things that boil down to 'depends on the definition', and that much is also true. In my opinion, if one follows the form meditation that the Dalai Lama speaks, the statement in the OP would tend to be true. The next question then becomes "What exactly is meditation/what is meant by OP when they say, 'meditation'?" - the OP fails to elaborate on this (and judging from how they equate two absolutely different types of meditation, I am certain they themselves do not know the intricacies of it), and I don't want to give a crash course on it, so I will not elaborate on the definitions here, rather the overall idea of what meditation, in general, is. That being said, several sects of Buddhism encourage skills/tendencies that can easily be adopted into secular societies/beliefs (or lack thereof), done entirely without needless ceremony or worship. They frown upon those who try to 'spread' Buddhism like it's a product. Among these skills are meditation.
I'm no meditation expert, but I did grow up in the U.S., and from what I can see these observations are right on the money. Many people have no idea what a real practice of meditation entails. But then Americans like to run off at the mouth about all manner of thing about which they are largely ignorant. There is also the related tendency to focus on and promote the superficial aspect of something without acknowledging and putting in the actual work required to obtain the desired benefit. This sometimes manifests as trends or fads that are commercialized for profit.

As with many things, meditation requires the consistent investment of energy and effort over time. That is why we sometimes refer to it is a discipline. There are no shortcuts, no subtitute for actually doing the work. During the years when I have maintained a regular practice of meditation, simple and limited as it was, I experienced a noticeable difference in my mood and my outlook. I can only imagine the benefit to someone who makes a proper study of it. This is something I want to return to, and regret getting out of the habit of.

Most religions have some form of meditation associated with them, however different the focus, specific techniques, or theological context. I suspect there are common elements, such as the basic idea of mindfulness, of being in the moment. As you say, meditation is a tool, a practice that can help achieve one's life goals. Developing a consistent practice of meditation, I suppose one could even speak of attaining a certain level of knowledge or skill with it, can be a goal in and of itself. Ultimately, though, people who are serious about meditating do it because it improves their lives in some way. To go back to the very old OP. one could argue that an orientation toward violence is not a good thing. Understanding that, or shifting one's perspective to see other ways of approaching life, can easily be experienced as an improvement.
 
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