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Morality

Lateralus

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Oh, you aren't talking about just morals, you are talking about character. And by character I mean, "the inherent complex of attributes that determine a person's moral and ethical actions and reactions." Obviously, the particular attribute you are debating here is integrity (as in honesty or virtue).

The fact of the matter is, that materially, people can get ahead by sacrificing their integrity. However, as I said in my earlier post, they face shame (a painful feeling of dishonor, disgrace, or condemnation) and if that doesn't deter them, then they will begin sacrificing their much more valuable opportunities for social bonds and relationships for the less valuable opportunities of material gain. People generally don't like being associated with liars and cheats because it is difficult to trust them.
With how vast our society is, it's pretty easy to avoid those consequences.

So people who sacrifice their integrity for material gain may not be sociopaths, but they are certainly idiots.
Are they? Or are they just taking advantage of the system?

Of course, if people want to gamble with their lives by living a lie, then I suppose that is their choice. The payout will never be worth it if they got caught in the process of doing so. And they aren't just cheating themselves, but anyone who trusts or believes in them.
Again, you're taking this to an extreme. Your entire life doesn't have to be a lie in order to gain from being dishonest in certain situations.
 

Kiddo

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With how vast our society is, it's pretty easy to avoid those consequences.

It catches up to people. Whether it is through deteriorating mental health because they have ignored their shame for so long, or people eventually catching on to their lack of integrity and ostracizing them. If it never does catch up to them, then good for them, but they will always live with the knowledge that that was the only way they could get there.

Are they? Or are they just taking advantage of the system?

Yeah, they are idiots. The reality is it is a slippery slope. It starts with one little lie, then becomes big lies, then becomes small crimes, and so forth.

I had a roommate who was the perfect little Mormon boy. Then his XBox broke down and he went to Walmart and bought a new one and returned the broken one to the store by using the box in which the new one had come in. No big deal. Walmart is a big corporation. But once he saw he could get away with that he thought he could try other things. He started smoking pot. Nothing bad happened. So he decided, why not try selling pot? So he called his parents, lied about needing some money, and bought a pound of weed which he sold for a decent profit. He paid back his parents, and he got away with it. And on and on it went to bigger and bigger crimes, until eventually got to the point that he was hurting people.

What was the purpose of that? Look at the kind of person he became. Is that really "getting ahead"?

Again, you're taking this to an extreme. Your entire life doesn't have to be a lie in order to gain from being dishonest in certain situations.

Cheating and lying are learned behaviors. Once a person gets away with them and effectively get a positive reward, they are infinitely more likely to do it again. It is as simple as that.
 

SolitaryWalker

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So if raping babies makes a child molestor happy, you would consider it moral? (assuming he could get away with it?).

Yes, that'd be moral if the child molestor is demented to the point where there is no way for him to function like a normal human being. Functioning like a normal human being is desirable because such a lifestyle is more likely to lead to happiness than that of molestation. Another example is, I would consider euthanasia ethically justifiable for a cancer patient as nothing makes him happier than this.

Would you encourage him to do it if he wouldn't get caught??).

No, because this causes us problems in maintaining an orderly society.
 
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Morality is beneficial to society, but harmful to the individual. Agree? Disagree? Think I'm just an ass?
I disagree, as evidenced by the fact that murder is neither beneficial to society nor the individual who's being murdered. As far as the murderer goes, his crime may be beneficial by whatever psychopathic rationale he subscribes to, but if the justice system isn't there to give him a dose of his own medicine, there's probably a few of the family members of his victims who'd be more than happy to oblige. On the other hand, if you don't murder anyone....you don't have to worry about anyone plotting revenge. Seems like a pretty sweet deal to me.
 

Lateralus

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It catches up to people. Whether it is through deteriorating mental health because they have ignored their shame for so long, or people eventually catching on to their lack of integrity and ostracizing them. If it never does catch up to them, then good for them, but they will always live with the knowledge that that was the only way they could get there.
Or perhaps it was the method that required the least effort.

Yeah, they are idiots. The reality is it is a slippery slope. It starts with one little lie, then becomes big lies, then becomes small crimes, and so forth.

I had a roommate who was the perfect little Mormon boy. Then his XBox broke down and he went to Walmart and bought a new one and returned the broken one to the store by using the box in which the new one had come in. No big deal. Walmart is a big corporation. But once he saw he could get away with that he thought he could try other things. He started smoking pot. Nothing bad happened. So he decided, why not try selling pot? So he called his parents, lied about needing some money, and bought a pound of weed which he sold for a decent profit. He paid back his parents, and he got away with it. And on and on it went to bigger and bigger crimes, until eventually got to the point that he was hurting people.

What was the purpose of that? Look at the kind of person he became. Is that really "getting ahead"?

Cheating and lying are learned behaviors. Once a person gets away with them and effectively get a positive reward, they are infinitely more likely to do it again. It is as simple as that.
The slippery slope argument. :dont:
 

Kiddo

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Or perhaps it was the method that required the least effort.

Funny. I've found in the past that cheating and lying have actually turned out to be more work than if had I actually just done the work because you have to live with the results in the long term. Often to the point that you have to do more lying and more cheating to get by. It's an idiotic short term solution.

The slippery slope argument. :dont:

It's the ultimate morality argument. You thought you could start a thread on morality and avoid it? :huh: If it wasn't proven true over and over again by experiences like the one I just told, then it wouldn't be such a strong argument.
 

Mole

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"Tomorrow belongs to me".

Personal morality is about being a good little boy or a good little girl, where the great moral crimes are committed by society, like slavery or sexism or war or imperialism or the abuse of children.

Good little boys and good little girls only conform to the morality of their society. It their society is immoral so they will be. But they will have no conscience about it. As far as they are concerned, they are being good.

I will never forget that good German boy singing, "Tomorrow belongs to me".

You can look in the mirror by clicking on YouTube - Cabaret - Tomorrow Belongs to Me
 

Mole

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You can't just answer the question yourself? :huh:

It is more important for you to answer the question yourself. You can do this easily by reading the book.

I have given you the address so you can even read it on the screen in front of you.
 

Kiddo

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It is more important for you to answer the question yourself. You can do this easily by reading the book.

I have given you the address so you can even read it on the screen in front of you.

Forgive me, but I don't see an address. Just the title and author of a book.
 

Lateralus

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I disagree, as evidenced by the fact that murder is neither beneficial to society nor the individual who's being murdered. As far as the murderer goes, his crime may be beneficial by whatever psychopathic rationale he subscribes to, but if the justice system isn't there to give him a dose of his own medicine, there's probably a few of the family members of his victims who'd be more than happy to oblige. On the other hand, if you don't murder anyone....you don't have to worry about anyone plotting revenge. Seems like a pretty sweet deal to me.
It sounds like you actually agree with me. The outlaw of murder is beneficial for society and individuals benefit when others follow the rules and don't commit murder. However, by limiting your choices, you're limiting your opportunities for personal gain. Murder is probably the most extreme example of this.
 

Kiddo

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It sounds like you actually agree with me. The outlaw of murder is beneficial for society and individuals benefit when others follow the rules and don't commit murder. However, by limiting your choices, you're limiting your opportunities for personal gain. Murder is probably the most extreme example of this.

What I don't seem to understand is how you are measuring "personal gain". The way you describe it, it sounds like it is only a measure of material wealth and power. Many people, myself included, don't value those things, and so it is inconceivable that could be considered "personal gain".
 

Lateralus

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What I don't seem to understand is how you are measuring "personal gain". The way you describe it, it sounds like it is only a measure of material wealth and power. Many people, myself included, don't value those things, and so it is inconceivable that could be considered "personal gain".
You don't value material wealth? I don't believe that for a second. You would die if you had no material wealth, so it has some value to you.
 
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It sounds like you actually agree with me. The outlaw of murder is beneficial for society and individuals benefit when others follow the rules and don't commit murder. However, by limiting your choices, you're limiting your opportunities for personal gain. Murder is probably the most extreme example of this.

Maybe you should alter your original assertion to "morality is beneficial to society, hypocrisy is beneficial to individuals"

Anyways, do you realize that part of the purpose of the legal system is to protect criminals as much as to protect victims? The old Hebrew "eye for an eye" principle was intended as a merciful way of cutting down on people murdering each other over petty grievances. When you fuck people over, you can only feel truly safe from negative consequences if you assume that no one else is capable of doing the same thing to you..or worse. That's why it's so easy to kill someone if you're a psychopath. Empathy can be rational.

So assuming you agree that other people don't like to be fucked over, why do you still believe that an immoral action is necessarily in your best interest?
 

Geoff

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As a premise I'd propose that a moral is a mutually agreed society meme - the ideas that society as a whole agree are necessary for smooth functioning. Like an updated ten commandments.

Given that, I see no link to individual success. A moral might also be of gain to an individual, it might not. Just depends on circumstances. It could be convergent with society's needs. It's just not possible to simplify this.
 

Lateralus

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As a premise I'd propose that a moral is a mutually agreed society meme - the ideas that society as a whole agree are necessary for smooth functioning. Like an updated ten commandments.

Given that, I see no link to individual success. A moral might also be of gain to an individual, it might not. Just depends on circumstances. It could be convergent with society's needs. It's just not possible to simplify this.
The link to individual success is that morals limit choice, which in turn limits opportunity.
 

Geoff

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The link to individual success is that morals limit choice, which in turn limits opportunity.

Opportunity for success or failure, though. So why is this inherently negative?

Eg society morals will often suggest committing suicide for no good reason is immoral. Result individual is discouraged from topping themself when a moody teenager. Is this limited opportunity negative?
 

Lateralus

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Opportunity for success or failure, though. So why is this inherently negative?

Eg society morals will often suggest committing suicide for no good reason is immoral. Result individual is discouraged from topping themself when a moody teenager. Is this limited opportunity negative?
All restriction of choice is negative, whether it crosses a moral boundary or not. It's up to the individual to decide which choices are in his own best interest.
 

Geoff

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All restriction of choice is negative, whether it crosses a moral boundary or not. It's up to the individual to decide which choices are in his own best interest.

Why is that to their personal advantage? Society can help them make decisions that are in their own interests. It's win-win. If a society moral restricts free-choice when that free choice is negative (eg suicide) that must usually be to their best interest.

Why shouldn't society be better placed, in some cases, to decide what an individual needs for their best interest. Again, my teenage suicide is a classic example.

I hear what you are saying, by the way, I just don't understand why for a communal species like humanity, individiuality results in better self interest.
It has its pros and cons, depending on circumstances.
 
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