A song about the persecution and suicide of Budd Dwyer.Originally Posted by Filter
The question is :- Is suicide ever a justified response? Is there a point where such sacrifice is noble and no longer merely an easy escape?
Oh and general discussion over the event would be cool too as I know little about it myself, I'm only just finding out about it now.
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Thread: Budd Dwyer : Hey Man Nice Shot
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05-21-2007, 09:12 AM #1
Budd Dwyer : Hey Man Nice Shot
Last edited by Xander; 05-23-2007 at 03:31 AM.
Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?
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05-21-2007, 09:21 AM #2
We're all on our way out. It may offend our sensibilities to hasten the process, but that doesnt mean people don't have the right to act in accordance with their will.
Some see it as free will. Some see it as being held hostage by a chemical imbalance, and therefore clouding 'true' judgement.
As an observer, I think my only responsibility is accepting those around me, and trying to affect their lives in the best way possible. That may never be enough - who knows? You can't quantify this shit.
I don't think words like 'sacrifice' and 'noble' help much, though - they tend to obscure.
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05-21-2007, 09:27 AM #3
Obscure what? If someone gives something up with the intention of benefiting others then what else do you call it?
There is of course the factor of people misinterpreting such things and emulating without understanding but hell in an age of handguns and power tools what's the difference? Stupid is as stupid does.Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?
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05-21-2007, 09:37 AM #4
How is suicide sacrificial, in the sense of how we normally view sacrifice? Most suicide is because people are messed up in the head and want to end their own misery. I think it bears repeating I don't harbour any particular judgement against those who commit suicide, but I think ascribing the act certain values just to legitimize it is somehow false.
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05-21-2007, 09:53 AM #5Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James HollisIf people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig WittgensteinWhaling is illegal in Oklahoma.
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05-21-2007, 10:03 AM #6
You mean cause there's no burden to bear for the individual doing the act then it's not sacrifice? I can see the logic (you'd have got on well with my mother
) but in certain situations there's nothing more you can give. Also the burden may not be suffered after the act but I'd reckon it most certainly is leading up to it. It's not like most people just go "Aha I have an idea" and jump off a building (judicious use of sarcasm).
That's not sacrifice though is it. That's "taking the easy way out" (as my mother put it once).
Regardless of whether those values justify it or not they are the motivating factors. It seems quite capricious to say (as society does [ie not you personally]) that killing someone can be reasoned as a good act for all concerned but killing yourself is never the correct course of action. I fear that with such reasoning you could strip many medals from war heroes as their acts can be reasoned as suicidal and their survival as mere chance. (I know I'm pushing this down a semi slippery slope but I think that certain caveats need to be established.)Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?
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05-21-2007, 10:04 AM #7
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05-21-2007, 10:20 AM #8
Indeed, that's my whole point.
I don't understand how you're structuring suicide as a sacrificial act, because I think under most circumstances suicide is an escape, and therefore is a freeing act.
(and therein lies the mess, religious views aside; the 'victim' has achieved their good at the expense of those who are left behind. The latter feel that a wrong has been committed against them and the potentiality of life for the victim, yet realize the victim's consent means they have no say on the morality of the action.)
Regardless of whether those values justify it or not they are the motivating factors. It seems quite capricious to say (as society does [ie not you personally]) that killing someone can be reasoned as a good act for all concerned but killing yourself is never the correct course of action. I fear that with such reasoning you could strip many medals from war heroes as their acts can be reasoned as suicidal and their survival as mere chance. (I know I'm pushing this down a semi slippery slope but I think that certain caveats need to be established.)
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05-21-2007, 10:53 AM #9
Did you read the quoted wikipedia article? I think that case in particular shows how the act can be defined as sacrificing.
Exactly. I think that a good portion of all the outrage is more to do with the lack of control people feel than any firm objection which isn't entirely self centred.
*whispers* Which bit?Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?
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05-22-2007, 05:57 PM #10
Guiltily, no. I was responding on general terms.
*whispers* Which bit?
Regardless of whether those values justify it or not they are the motivating factors. It seems quite capricious to say (as society does [ie not you personally]) that killing someone can be reasoned as a good act for all concerned but killing yourself is never the correct course of action. I fear that with such reasoning you could strip many medals from war heroes as their acts can be reasoned as suicidal and their survival as mere chance. (I know I'm pushing this down a semi slippery slope but I think that certain caveats need to be established.)
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