Woman and man's highest calling- Cherokee proverb

[Pseudo]

Men don't "go to war" because they want to, excepting a very small minority. They are (or used to be) drafted by the army, and most of them (us) were deeply unhappy about it.

I somewhat disagree with you. I was with guy whose Family all had a very pro-military worldview. Almost all of the men had served at one time or another and there was the idea that being a military family was the greatest things you could possibly do. I think many people are attracted to the idea of war as being noble and romantic.

 

[Pseudo]

Yes, because they're physically stronger and they don't make babies.



There's a clear biological reason which no one denies, on the other hand there's no reason to assume that men actually prefer the current sociological setting which makes them "go to war" much more often etc.

There no biological reason why women couldn't be drafted into non-combat positions in the military.

 

[greenfairy]

Well I for one commend [MENTION=15773]greenfairy[/MENTION] for defending her OP to the last breath. hope you stick around the forum :applause:

Wait unless you posted some rule breakers in these 15 threads, in which case, somebody better report them so we know about em.

Well thanks!

I'm glad to see some people like my posts.

I like the concept of an NT pushing mysticism. I would like to see more.

Don't worry, you will.

 

[greenfairy]

Don’t use touchy-feely New Age motivational posters to suck people into a discussion on pagan yin-yang theories. People are going to resist the latter by focusing on the deficiencies of the former.

If you want to discuss pagan mysticism, just present it as an intellectual discussion of exactly that, and whoever shows up will focus on that alone.

I posted this in a section on spirituality. Yin yang theories and mysticism are my spirituality, and it also has some touchy feely elements to it, as spirituality tends to. My spirituality is just as valid as anyone else's, and I can express it as I choose. If people don't like it they don't have to read and post disrespectful comments. If you reject the idea of anything spiritual or mystical, you really shouldn't visit threads on the subjects.

 

[greenfairy]

I don’t know anything about pagan mysticism myself.

I’m just figuring that post No. 30 (greenfairy’s wall-of-text post on yin-yang theory) was the real center of the thread and that greenfairy started off with the New Age visual in order to soft-pedal the pagan theory and appeal to a wider audience. IMO, greenfairy would have done better to start off with the wall-of-text post.

To spell it out: Starting off with the light crowd-pleaser visual stuff and then using it to introduce heavy theoretical stuff later on in the thread smacks of bait-and-switch; most regular posters can smell that a mile off and tend to react poorly to it.

I’m just pointing all this out as a friendly tip to greenfairy, by the way. Greenfairy has been making some excellent posts and contributions, and I would hate to see her get discouraged over a minor thread misfire that’s easily corrected.

Well thanks for the advice. I wasn't aware I was doing this, but maybe I was. I really just liked it, and wanted to know what people thought. I thought it had some thought provoking themes, and people would like it. And some people responded the way I wanted. Then I added my own thoughts. Sorry, my thoughts just tend to be heavy and theoretical. But I really just wanted a nice discussion about gender harmony and spirituality.

 

[greenfairy]

Fucking finally!! Hip-hip hurray for this thread!

What's up NFers???

Oh ok, so everything I say is invalid because a couple of people think I've mistyped myself. Whatever- you're right. I'm every temperament rolled into one. I'm anything you want me to be. I'm a shapeshifter. Happy? NF's can post in this section too.

I dislike non-NTs pretending to be NTs pushing mysticism.

They don't exist. Or have severe problems.

The main thing is that it pisses off all the other NTs.

Actually I don't recall saying anywhere in the OP or in my personal response to it that I'm NT, or that my ideas depend on it. Maybe I am and I'm pretending to be NF for the purpose of pushing mysticism. Or maybe I've decided I'm NF and am acting accordingly. You don't really know.

Yeah, I don't fit into your little binary mental boxes for personality types. I have my own ideas of them, which I'm entitled to, and I'm entitled to mistype myself if I choose, or think I'm whatever type I want, as it's my type and I know myself better than anyone else. I think you're missing out on a lot of cool ideas by rejecting anything that comes from an NF sounding point of view. Sorry my complex and multi-faceted personality annoys you. I guess you'll just spend the rest of your time on here annoyed, as I don't intend to leave.

In fact, I don't have severe problems. I'm quite functional. And I'm a Wiccan priestess, which means I've studied Wicca a fair amount, and I'm technically considered to be qualified to give advice and such (which means if I started out with any severe problems I should have them taken care of by now). It is a legitimate religion, with many NT's. My life is pretty good. How is yours?

 

[greenfairy]

No. When one person is extreme in one area, it's always best that they seek balance within themselves, rather than excusing their imbalance as a function of gender, and seeking to compensate for it by symbiosis with someone else equally (though oppositely) imbalanced.

We call this Individuation and it is part of growing up. A process which involves throwing off childish fairy tales and fantasies and overly-simplistic models of the world and the "types" of people in it.

Ok you're right, I should have phrased this better. I mean people have individual strengths and weaknesses, and even just taking into account the strengths, being different it's best for people to complement each other as [MENTION=16071]sprinkles[/MENTION] suggested. Yes, people need to have balance within themselves first. But individual differences exist and are a good thing, and those differences work best in balance. Two balanced individuals in balance with each other is a good thing. Gender has associated differences, which are a good thing; they tend to fit the pattern of yin-yang, and are somewhat correlated with biological sex.

 

[FDG]

I somewhat disagree with you. I was with guy whose Family all had a very pro-military worldview. Almost all of the men had served at one time or another and there was the idea that being a military family was the greatest things you could possibly do. I think many people are attracted to the idea of war as being noble and romantic.

You knew one family like that, and that defeats the argument that most men have to be forced if they have to go to war? You may notice how, if that were the case, a concept such as "draft" wouldn't even exist...

There no biological reason why women couldn't be drafted into non-combat positions in the military.

Yep, I agree. And they indeed used to help near the front.

 

[greenfairy]

So no one has any legitimate arguments to what I've actually said.

I could take that to mean I'm doing pretty well, or maybe people have just decided to not participate in a dialogue.

 

[Pseudo]

You knew one family like that, and that defeats the argument that most men have to be forced if they have to go to war? You may notice how, if that were the Ycase, a concept such as "draft" wouldn't even exist..


Yep, I agree. And they indeed used to help near the front.

I don't think that family is an isolated group they are just an example. They are other people outside of that family who share similar views. Not everyone in the army has to be drafted. I think your characterization of men/people and war is in inaccurate because no military force has ever been made up entirely of draftees. Also, right now there is not a active draft In the united states and there are still people volunteering to go to war.

I could just as easily say that if your idea was correct a concept such as "war" would not exist.

I think that some people are just attracted to agression and power (or even all people but to varying degrees). Thats what I think when I see people spending hours on video games that imitate war, watching action movies that feature the hero shooting and blowing things up, MMA, boxing, certain types of music that feature lyrics glorifying/boasting about violence, clothing decorated with skulls and guns. At least the united states (I dare say western culture) there are certain people who think of serving in a war or being a solider as noble or romantic idea.

 

[rav3n]

I'm a shapeshifter.

Typical NFP.

Actually I don't recall saying anywhere in the OP or in my personal response to it that I'm NT, or that my ideas depend on it. Maybe I am and I'm pretending to be NF for the purpose of pushing mysticism. Or maybe I've decided I'm NF and am acting accordingly. You don't really know.

Every single post I've read of yours screams INFP. Every.single.one.

Yeah, I don't fit into your little binary mental boxes for personality types.

Yes you do fit. INFP.

I have my own ideas of them, which I'm entitled to, and I'm entitled to mistype myself if I choose, or think I'm whatever type I want, as it's my type and I know myself better than anyone else. I think you're missing out on a lot of cool ideas by rejecting anything that comes from an NF sounding point of view.

Fi dom. Entitlement and self-righteousness.

Sorry my complex and multi-faceted personality annoys you. I guess you'll just spend the rest of your time on here annoyed, as I don't intend to leave.

Complex and multi-faceted, no. But your arguments are feely based and irrational.

Don't leave. This would ruin the fun.

In fact, I don't have severe problems. I'm quite functional. And I'm a Wiccan priestess, which means I've studied Wicca a fair amount, and I'm technically considered to be qualified to give advice and such (which means if I started out with any severe problems I should have them taken care of by now).

So happy for you. But that doesn't change your mistyping.

It is a legitimate religion, with many NT's.

Is it? Possibly. But you can rest assured their arguments would be less values and emotion based.

My life is pretty good. How is yours?

Mine's fine. Can't wait to retire next year while in my mid-thirties.

Overall, my problem is your dissembling, not only with type but also with topic. What's worse is denial within yourself. While all this hand wavy frou-frou might be what makes you happy, it's not for everyone. Some of us actually prefer theories with substance, ones that don't float in the clouds since there's no foundation.

Much of mysticism was developed prior to science, as mankind's way to explain shit that scared them since they couldn't understand them, hence couldn't control.

As far as balance, my preference leans towards what Salomé stated. Individuation. So. What happens to the lean to built when your balancing partner leaves? Do you fall over and then use a razor blade to guilt them back to support you again?

 

[iwakar]

Thoughts?

I think this is lovely.

It could be said that things of this nature have a bit of a heterosexual bias, but it could just as easily be platonic; and man or woman could be whichever of the feminine or masculine polarities you identify with (doesn't have to be biological).

That ideology had a place in that society, in that culture. It served its function. The future will require a new one, however.

 

[greenfairy]

Typical NFP.

Every single post I've read of yours screams INFP. Every.single.one.

Yes you do fit. INFP.

Fi dom. Entitlement and self-righteousness.

Complex and multi-faceted, no. But your arguments are feely based and irrational.

Don't leave. This would ruin the fun.

So happy for you. But that doesn't change your mistyping.

So you think my belief that I have the ability and the right to assess my own personality and claim my own type as I choose is a sense of entitlement? Really? Do you think there should be some sort of a forum panel who reads everyone's questionnaires and then based on their own personal mental frameworks gives people an unalterable label? You should try to start one. Good luck with that.

Ok. Think what you want. I appreciate the attempt for evidence towards your INFP claim, which I'll always take into account if it's based on logic and genuine typology rather than "vibes" and personal subjective feelings.

In my personal experience with myself (of which I have more than anyone else on here), I am not a typical INFP any more than INTP or any other type.

Is it? Possibly. But you can rest assured their arguments would be less values and emotion based.

I use feeling arguments where they are relevant and thinking arguments where they are relevant. Life is not purely one or the other, and I adapt to suit it. Maybe I'm more in touch with my feeling side than you are, but it's not reasonable to assume I'm a feeler because of it. And in my experience with pagan NT's that's simply not the case. They tend to have an adaptable quality to their arguments similar to mine. Because it's logical.

Mine's fine. Can't wait to retire next year while in my mid-thirties.

Overall, my problem is your dissembling, not only with type but also with topic. What's worse is denial within yourself. While all this hand wavy frou-frou might be what makes you happy, it's not for everyone. Some of us actually prefer theories with substance, ones that don't float in the clouds since there's no foundation.

Like I say, I posted this in a type-neutral part of the forum, in a category which was appropriate to the subject. If it's not for you that's fine. I get it. And with all due respect, my type is not relevant to the thread.

Much of mysticism was developed prior to science, as mankind's way to explain shit that scared them since they couldn't understand them, hence couldn't control.

Yes, true. And a lot of it was superstitious nonsense. However, my opinion is that people had just as accurate an understanding of the world and how to live in it 10,000 years ago; they just had to understand it in different ways. They looked for patterns in nature and applied them. They looked at symbolic meaning in what they saw and experienced. These ways of understanding are still relevant, and in my opinion not type related. Reality has two sides- objective and subjective. Objective is known by observation (science) and subjective is known by interaction (intuition, mysticism, experience, spirituality). If you ignore one you are only seeing half of reality.

As far as balance, my preference leans towards what Salomé stated. Individuation. So. What happens to the lean to built when your balancing partner leaves? Do you fall over and then use a razor blade to guilt them back to support you again?

No, of course not. As I stated, two balanced people in balance with each other would be fine on their own should the relationship end. Being in a relationship just adds its own special enjoyment to life, based on harmony between different individuals. It's kind of like, I can be fine not ever eating sushi for the rest of my life. But I really really like it.

 

[Pseudo]

Yeah, I don't fit into your little binary mental boxes for personality types.

I'm not trying to say your wrong or fight with you but this seems like a very INFP thing to say.

 

[Rasofy]

 

[greenfairy]

I'm not trying to say your wrong or fight with you but this seems like a very INFP thing to say.

Maybe so. It's true though. I didn't like it at first, and I spent forever analyzing myself and trying to fit myself into a type, and it didn't work. So I have to accept it. Other people don't of course, because I can't force anyone to accept anything, but it's reality as I see it.



Actually I have my own ideas of what INTP is like, and I do think I fit pretty neatly into it, more than any other type. And I have a lot of nice extra things like empathy and passion. I just don't fit neatly into everyone's idea of it.

Now can we drop the subject for awhile?


Let's get back to discussing the merits of mysticism and gender harmony in the context of spirituality and philosophy.

 

[rav3n]

So you think my belief that I have the ability and the right to assess my own personality and claim my own type as I choose is a sense of entitlement? Really? Do you think there should be some sort of a forum panel who reads everyone's questionnaires and then based on their own personal mental frameworks gives people an unalterable label? You should try to start one. Good luck with that.

Ok. Think what you want. I appreciate the attempt for evidence towards your INFP claim, which I'll always take into account if it's based on logic and genuine typology rather than "vibes" and personal subjective feelings.

In my personal experience with myself (of which I have more than anyone else on here), I am not a typical INFP any more than INTP or any other type.

Every one of your rationales is based on subjective internal values and feelings. How much more evidence do you need unless you're determined to be delusional.

Consider the processes to be coping strategies. Your dom function is your lead strategy where the aux is to supplement the dom. In your case it's Fi or internal values with subjective emotional responses attuned to internal values. Ne bounces around to augment and in your response to me, your Ne has grabbed a boatload of shit and tied it all together to bring about your above synthesis of what I've stated. Uncertain if you can see the difference between what I've previously stated and your perception of what was stated.

Your tert is a relief function or secondary coping strategy which in your case is Si, where you embrace the gender binary.

I use feeling arguments where they are relevant and thinking arguments where they are relevant. Life is not purely one or the other, and I adapt to suit it. Maybe I'm more in touch with my feeling side than you are, but it's not reasonable to assume I'm a feeler because of it. And in my experience with pagan NT's that's simply not the case. They tend to have an adaptable quality to their arguments similar to mine. Because it's logical.

No. You lead with Fi-Ne.

Like I say, I posted this in a type-neutral part of the forum, in a category which was appropriate to the subject. If it's not for you that's fine. I get it. And with all due respect, my type is not relevant to the thread.

It's intensely relevant to any form of self-actualisation. In order to do so, internal delusion can't exist, at least to the degree that's blatant. Note the touch of Te?

Yes, true. And a lot of it was superstitious nonsense. However, my opinion is that people had just as accurate an understanding of the world and how to live in it 10,000 years ago; they just had to understand it in different ways. They looked for patterns in nature and applied them. They looked at symbolic meaning in what they saw and experienced. These ways of understanding are still relevant, and in my opinion not type related. Reality has two sides- objective and subjective. Objective is known by observation (science) and subjective is known by interaction (intuition, mysticism, experience, spirituality). If you ignore one you are only seeing half of reality.

Fi-Ne-Si, with a touch of Te.

No, of course not. As I stated, two balanced people in balance with each other would be fine on their own should the relationship end. Being in a relationship just adds its own special enjoyment to life, based on harmony between different individuals. It's kind of like, I can be fine not ever eating sushi for the rest of my life. But I really really like it.

That's fine. But to embrace the gender binary isn't for everyone, particularly those who don't use Si as their secondary coping strategy.

 

[Pseudo]

Let's get back to discussing the merits of mysticism and gender harmony in the context of spirituality and philosophy.

I think the idea of gender harmony falls apart when you realize that the members of a gender don't all have the same traits/functions. Let's use MBTI terminology just to have a similar vocabulary. As an INTP woman I don't think I function the same way as an ESFJ female. An INFP man and and an ESTP man have different functions. They way that we all interact with each other will take different forms that cannot be predicted by gender.

An INFP man would probably be more in touch with the "source" to begin with than me. I feel like this proverb describes a very particular personality combination/dynamic.

 

[Elfboy]

That ideology had a place in that society, in that culture. It served its function. The future will require a new one, however.

interesting, as an Fi user, the concept of ideologies "serving a purpose" is kinda foreign to me.

 

[greenfairy]

Every one of your rationales are based on subjective internal values and feelings. How much more evidence do you need unless you're determined to delusional.

And I'm supposed to determine my type how else?

Consider the processes to be coping strategies. Your dom function is your lead strategy where the aux is to supplement the dom. In your case it's Fi or internal values with subjective emotional responses attuned to internal values. Ne bounces around to augment and in your response to me, your Ne has grabbed a boatload of shit and tied it all together to bring about your above synthesis of what I've stated. Uncertain if you can see the difference between what I've previously stated and your perception of what was stated.

I don't really understand this, but to the extent that I do I don't agree. Possible though. I don't see where I've been using Fi. You're welcome to point it out, but I'd prefer if you did it on the thread I started for analyzing my type. Lots of sarcasm and absurdity though.

Funny, I thought the tribal mentality, which I tend to embrace, is very Fe.

Your tert is a relief function or secondary coping strategy which in your case is Si, where you embrace the gender binary.

Maybe so. Interesting point.

It's intensely relevant to any form of self-actualisation. In order to do so, internal delusion can't exist, at least to the degree that's blatant. Note the touch of Te?

Ok, but my self-actualization isn't relevant to the thread either. Or my internal delusion, except to the extent that it affects my statements, which it doesn't as they don't depend on me being a certain type. I'd almost suspect at this point that you are trying to employ Fe rather than Te, as you are focused on me (the human element) rather than my specific ideas (objective facts or not).

Fi-Ne-Si, with a touch of Te.

So that's your counter-argument?

It could just as easily be Ne (patterns)-Ti (application)-Si (experience)-Fe (social application). Could it not?

That's fine. But to embrace the gender binary isn't for everyone, particularly those who don't use Si as their secondary coping strategy.

No, embracing the gender binary isn't for everyone. But if you have a gender and you are in a relationship with another gendered person, you will each have individual gender associated differences, which will ideally be in balance with each other. So if you see this as a gender binary, you are participating in it whether you believe in it or not. If you choose to believe it's something else, then your argument is irrelevant.