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  1. #11


    King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
    Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me(...)

    By "bad", I mean according to our perception. Objectively, God is good, but it takes courage to acknowledge our discomfort in his plan. I'm not even necessarily talking about moral goodness.

    God is essentially a being that cannot be understood, as @KDude mentioned. Yes I'm referring to Judeo-Christian God. Ugh I don't even want to participate in this convo.

  2. #12


    What is God?

    Philosophy is really starting to annoy me -_-

  3. #13
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Mar 2008
    Quote Originally Posted by Blank View Post
    I would be interested to hear your perspective on any part of this topic but please don't just quote scripture. Offer your insight as well.
    "The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully".

  4. #14
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Apr 2007


    Kretzmann's attempt to explode Euthyphro's dilemma is bogus; it's a bare-faced equivocation.

    There is, however, a way to resolve the problem. One must first acknowledge the inextricable role that physical law plays in morality, because the kind of beings and relationships that are possible ultimately depend on such constraints. Had the laws of physics been different, then different types of thoughts, emotions, and social relationships would, presumably, be possible. The problems of morality that are commonly confronted in introductory ethics classes are somewhat contingent on the particular universe we happen to find ourselves in.

    In other words, morality must be relative, at least to some extent, to whatever the laws of the universe are. However, this also means that the proper morality for our universe must, to the same extent, be objective. This would be so whether or not God exists, so He may love such good because it is, indeed, objectively good. But presuming God also laid down the particular laws of the universe, then it can also be true that it is only objectively good in the first place because God loved it. Problem solved.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  5. #15
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012


    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  6. #16
    Senior Member
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    Jun 2009


    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    I do believe God is good in a very big picture way, but I think people tend to take a very simple approach in understanding this. It creates a whole lot of inconsitencies in Christian theology. I think that what makes God God is that God has created the potentialities of the experience of good and bad. If that was God's only act, that in itself is a Good thing.
    That's pretty much what I was going to say.

    I do believe in the supposed sovereignty of good, I also believe that goodness is perfect, and that since God is perfect (and this is my own personal litmus test for whether or not a deity is properly conceived as such or just an anthropomorphism) then God is good. Although as you say since without God there would be no good or bad in the first place then God is good by that measure too.
    All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind.
    Chapter IV, p. 448. - Adam Smith, Book 3, The Wealth of Nations

    whether or not you credit psychoanalysis itself, the fact remains that we all must, to the greatest extent possible, understand one another's minds as our own; the very survival of humanity has always depended on it. - Open Culture

  7. #17
    Senior Member You's Avatar
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    Jun 2010


    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    you say killing. i say walking papers.

    that god guy is just telling them they can move off his world and live with lucifer across the street. they don't call him the Father for nothing. but who are we talking about again? philosophy has become lame.
    Oh, its

  8. #18
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Jan 2010


    Quote Originally Posted by You View Post
    philosophy has become lame.
    Philosophy became lame when Pythagoras was born. And lamer when Plato and Aristotle were born.

    Heraclitus was the man though.

  9. #19


    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Philosophy became lame when Pythagoras was born. And lamer when Plato and Aristotle were born.

    Heraclitus was the man though.

    Zeno was better.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Sep 2010


    Quote Originally Posted by Blank View Post
    @Ginkgo, where are you getting the notion that God is bad? In my limited understanding, this should not be the case. I believe many Christians would disagree with you. Were you speaking of the Christian god, or a deity in general?

    Kretzmann brings this up at the end of his essay, in which he argues that perfect power is perfectly good. To be perfectly good means being god and to be perfectly powerful also means being god. Take from that what you will. The argument behind your post leaves much to be desired though, so if this doesn't address your concerns, please elaborate on the thoughts behind your original post.
    I think my main problem was how objective morality was juxtoposed against perfect morality, but then treated as if it were objective.

    Morality, if perfect, would also be objective, would it not? Unless you assent to perfect morality as being in-objective...necessitating god as being in-objective...which many, I guess, would be ok with.

    Personally, god has to be above morality...the definition of god for me is everything that nothing else is above. Without that qualification god becomes useless..but I can't accept that as true...just practically speaking alone.

    I had a similar question between "love" and "god". If god is incapable of being loved, other than in the way he is loved by humans, then, as a species that wants to be loved, humanly, we would rather be humans than gods, right? That is, the love between man and god is because, in part at least, he is perfect. But the love between two humans is fundamentally different because humans are imperfect. So, then, for humans, who want to be loved by other humans, love is above god?

    The response I got was that "love isn't based on perfections/imperfections".

    Which of course didn't make sense...but since when does anything?

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