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  1. #71
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Sep 2007


    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Funny you've insisted that judging others is wrong, yet throughout this thread you make all sorts of judgements about people you don't agree with(Catholics, Conservative Christians, etc.). And right here, you call me a blatant liar.
    I'm only following your lead and judging the sin, not the sinner. I can't imagine why you would think of me calling you a liar just because I detested the lie you told.

    So maybe it's time for you to follow your beliefs, and "judge not, let thee be judged".
    Funny, I thought you were the Christian.

    "Mere tolerance is a virtue to those who don't believe in anything."
    --GK Chesterton

    And btw, turning the other cheek has nothing to do with tolerance.

    I believe in religious freedom, not religious tolerance. They're not the same.
    Oh please explain the difference between religious freedom and religious tolerance. And its funny how you would say that a story in the Bible that has to deal with how Jesus acted with complete tolerance toward those who demonstrated no tolerance towards him "has nothing to do with tolerance."

    This is an evasive answer of a very deceptive kind.
    What is evasive about me defending to the death, your right to freely worship, even though I may disagree with it? I would love to hear it.

    Thus is the fine art of missing the point.
    Your point is the people in history have exaggerated the atrocities committed by your church, and yet they still occurred. It sounds like you might be missing the point.

    You do seem to share the staunch anti-Christian fervor of the Communists.

    In any case, I'm done with this charade of yours.

    In other words, you realize you are losing so you are trying to bow out with as much of your pride intact as possible. In order to do so, you wish to accuse me of being a communist, which I am not, and has nothing to do with the discussion. It is a cheap rhetorical trick aimed at derailing the discussion at best. Please do remember that it was pride and inhospitality that were the true sins of Sodom.

    I'm anti-religious intolerance. It's not Christian to be intolerant to your fellow man by condemning him through his sins. That is the opposite of what Jesus taught. Which was namely to love God and to love your fellow man as yourself. And as you aren't even holding yourself responsible for a lie you clearly told in front of anyone who can read, I doubt it is your place to condemn what you percieve as the sins of anyone else. That is the charade here. People who practice a Christianity that has nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus Christ.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  2. #72
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Apr 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    By "conservative", I think we can presume that Jennifer is pointing to the Moral Majority; Christian Coalition; Jerry Falwell - any constituent part within Evangelicalism would likely be a good guess.
    Since I'm here for a moment, yes, that's what I meant.

    Perhaps I'm not being specific enough with the terminology because the bulk of my religious experience has been dealing the major denominations + the typical evangelical subculture. Sorry.

    More importantly, I think she was referencing the political ideology that typically characterizes these systems. "Conservative" in this case suggests a belief in the sanctity of traditional values concerning abortion; homosexuality; marriage; trade; etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Well first off, Christianity is not an ideology. There are certain elements of Christian teachings that deal with socio-political issues; the Protestants have the Social Gospel, and Catholics have Social Doctrine.

    Homosexuality is a sin. Within the Catholic perspective, I believe the notion commonly is that homosexual acts are the sin but not necessarily homosexual inclinations per se. You just can't act on those inclinations.

    If Homosexuality is indeed genetic(Im not debating the issue whether it is or not), that still doesn't change the fact that it's a sin. Of course this will put plenty of internal pressure upon people with such inclinations. We know it, and we understand.

    The life of the true Christian is one of constant struggle with ones flaws and sinfulness, and of course laspes will occur. We understand, and we wish to show compassion when that happens. It should probably be noted that God does acknowledge honest efforts to stay on the right path, even when we ultimately fail in doing so.

    Within Catholicism, we have the sacrament of reconciliation(confession), where we come before God and asked forgiveness for our wrong-doing. In doing so, we are forgiven and brought back in God's good graces.

    God does not want us to hate ourselves, he wants us to love ourselves in proper form(geniune self-love is not the same as pride mind you). As even my own confessor once said, Satan is interested in undermining ones faith, and certainly one sneaky way he does it is by convincing you you're worthless before God. One must constantly resist such thoughts. Sin does not make you worthless before God.

    As St. Padre Pio once said:
    "God can reject everything in a creature conceived in sin and of which it bears the indelible impression inherited from Adam. But He can absolutely not reject the sincere desire to love Him."
    The great irony I find is when people criticise Christianity for claiming that man is sinful, claiming that means man is worthless before God. That's not all so. If God thought so, he wouldn't have sent his son to die for our salvation. It should also be noted that the Bible claims that man was created in God's image. That happens before original sin.

    And the incarnation of Christ also shows the close relationship between the human and the divine, as Nikolai Berdyaev explains:
    "Christianity is not only belief in God; it is also belief in man, and in the possibility of a revealation of the divine in man. There exists a commensurability between God and man and on that account only is revealation of God to man possible. Pure abstract transcendentalism makes revealation impossible; it cannot open out pathways to God, and excludes the possibility of communion between man and God."
    Martin Buber also further elaborated upon this, claiming that according to the Biblical tradition, the relationship between man and God is based upon the I-Thou relationship. We connect with God on such an intimate level, which is not readily seen in many other traditions.

    I think I've drifted from the original topic here. Applying to homosexuals, we can also address this from the basic Existential argument of Existence preceding Essence.

    Long story short: Homosexuals are not somehow sub-human for being homosexuals. They're still people, and sinners like anybody else. In this case, they have their own particular demon to face; just like we have our own particular demons to face.

    And I'm beginning to loose my train of thought, so I'll end it here.
    This probably answers your question in your other thread as to why most people (except for those who aren't intellectually intimidated) shy away from engaging you.

    1. You overwhelm them with lots of information.

    2. You seed your posts with references that quickly distinguish "you know more than them" -- regardless of whether you really do or are consistently interpreting the sources you quote. (Essentially, it's a form of intellectual intimidation. Those who want to communicate make it EASIER for people to respond by not quoting authorities to people who most likely will not have heard of them; but it seems more like a way to buttress your authority in the conversation and "win the point" than to allow the other person an opening to respond.)

    I'm not sure yet if you comprehend how your approach closes down conversation rather than encourages it, but basically if you put out bait for shark in a pond, don't be surprised when none of the fresh water fish bite.

    As far as the homosexuality argument goes, you seem to have everything figured out. Yes, your framework has internal consistency. Does it have external consistency? I'm not convinced of that. That's my biggest problem with the evangelical church, having lived within it so long. It tries to derive clean answers to life's complex problems. "Well, if God is THIS, and he does THAT, it all must fit together like THIS." And people fail to step outside the framework and look at it from the outside, until some life situation intrudes that jars against the frame... and they don't know what to do with it.

    There's also some lovely assumptions (including whether homosexuality is actually a sin). I'm not debating that point with you here, nor am I sure of the answer myself. But I think that's where "fuzzy logic" breaks into things. I don't disagree with how "sensible it sounds" that we all each have our demons to deal with, etc., in fact, that's such general statement, I think it makes sense; but that still doesn't deal with proving what is a sin and what is not, and what things might fit into other categories. Do the specific acts we're talking about fit into the broader theology you bring up? Maybe. Maybe not. But you seem inclined to accept it as all part of the same.

    I'd go further, but it's midnight and I'm tired and now I'm losing MY train of thought. Maybe some other time.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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