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Is suicide justified?

Eileen

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But sometimes they don't have much pain. And most of the time there is a checking-out process where their minds really seemed to be leaving their bodies....You would want to rob them of that departure process? I think euthanasia is cruel. And has fatalistic ramifications we do not even care to fathom, much less consider. Why does everyone think hurrying death is so beneficial and superior to allowing the normal process to unfold??

I think that euthanasia and suicide are two different things. To me, suicide connotes a person's choice, not outside others making decisions for that person. The Terry Schaivo case, for example, is one where I think it was complicated by her inability to consent (though that is why we should all have living wills), but when someone seeks a physician's help in dying because of a chronic illness, I think that's a different thing.
 

1487610420

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I do no think either side of the argument can be exempt from bias. Those who advocate a natural course find that to be what resonates more with their belief system and values, and the same can be said for those who advocate for a controlled process. Trying to dissect the pros and the cons will ultimately clash with people's inner core and their drives, which can be often the result of complex, convoluted, unconscious and still ongoing processes. Ultimately that's not going to change easily [until collective consciousness evolves or something] and heated debates and opposing resolutions will keep on unfolding, in an organic balancing act.

So, take a :chillpill: @ thread.

:drwho:
 

Lexicon

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I do no think either side of the argument can be exempt from bis. Those who advocate a natural course find that to be what resonates more with their belief system and values, and the same can be said for those who advocate for a controlled process. Trying to dissect the pros and the cons will ultimately clash with people's inner core and their drives, which can be often the result of complex, convoluted, unconscious and and still ongoing processes. Ultimately that's not going to change easily [until collective consciousness evolves or something] and heated debates and opposing resolutions will keep on unfolding, in an organic balancing act.

So, take a :chillpill: @ thread.

:drwho:


Pretty much. I'm merely trying to understand the other side. Not actively convert- not my thing.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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Where did you find this definition of being ''meant'' to do or be anything in this life, or death? To me, these are all subjective. I'm saying live and let live, or, live and let die, in some scenarios. It'd be arrogant for me to assume I know what people should or should not ultimately do in these situations. I'm no universal authority on life or death, no matter how strongly I may feel about my own beliefs.

And what would you call refusal of food and water? Animals die of self-imposed dehydration and starvation when they're ill enough, all the time.

I believe when you deal with natural biological processes of life (and death), there is a way that is meant to be. Of course, since we have higher level thinking and free will, we might try to change this reality to effect an outcome we might deem superior. But a million years of evolution is hard to better. So there is a way that is more 'meant to be.' And that is the way most rooted in nature. Ask yourself how would this happen in nature, or in the most natural way possible, and you will likely find the answer for the best outcome.


EDIT: And I think you, or others, are taking my opinion as proselytizing. I am not expecting, nor trying, to change anyone's mind. Which is why I often use the terms 'my opinion,' 'I believe,' or etc. Why do you view it at trying to convert?
 

Nicodemus

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The more interesting question is: When is it justified to bring a new life into this world knowing that it will suffer?
 

prplchknz

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I can not give my opinion on this topic, for i am too fucked up and not thinking clearly at the moment it will be too subjective.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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^We can control bringing a new life into this world about like we can control a life exiting this world.

Life precedes humanity, and it's a mute point to speak of preventing it.
 

Beorn

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I will add that while I'm vehemently against assisted suicide I'm also against families who can't let go of their loved ones who sustain sudden traumatic injuries and put them through invasive procedures that will only extend their pain and suffering.

I'm against assisted killing, but in certain situations I'm for the removal or non-use of life saving assistance.
 

Beorn

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The more interesting question is: When is it justified to bring a new life into this world knowing that it will suffer?

When is it justified to bring about nuclear holocaust knowing it will end all suffering?
 

Lexicon

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I believe when you deal with natural biological processes of life (and death), there is a way that is meant to be. Of course, since we have higher level thinking and free will, we might try to change this reality to effect an outcome we might deem superior. But a million years of evolution is hard to better. So there is a way that is more 'meant to be.' And that is the way most rooted in nature. Ask yourself how would this happen in nature, or in the most natural way possible, and you will likely find the answer for the best outcome.


EDIT: And I think you, or others, are taking my opinion as proselytizing. I am not expecting, nor trying, to change anyone's mind. Which is why I often use the terms 'my opinion,' 'I believe,' or etc.



I have no desire to change your point of view, I'm more curious as to your reasoning for imposing it on others- whether you mean to or not, you sometimes speak in absolutes about your subjetive values, which can result in others feeling like you are imposing your beliefs on them- or make people wonder what your sense of concrete reality or rationality is, exactly. Your reactions appear to be inreasingly defensive, whenever anyone disagrees with or questions your standpoint. I'm not trying to trigger that sort of response, at all. I just enjoy the exchange of conflicting ideas [debating vs fighting] and analysing people's mental processes for its own sake-- and perhaps I haven't been clear enough, on that. I have no wish to push my perspective on you or anyone else. Just here to collect information & understand, or try to.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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I have no desire to change your point of view, I'm more curious as to your reasoning for imposing it on others- whether you mean to or not, you sometimes speak in absolutes about your subjetive values, which can result in others feeling like you are imposing your beliefs on them- or make people wonder what your sense of concrete reality or rationality is, exactly. Your reactions appear to be inreasingly defensive, whenever anyone disagrees with or questions your standpoint. I'm not trying to trigger that sort of response, at all. I just enjoy the exhange of conflicting ideas [debating vs fighting] and analysing people's mental processes for its own sake-- and perhaps I haven't been clear enough, on that. I have no wish to push my perspective on you or anyone else.

When I state an opinion, I expect others to sit up and take notice, and to respectfully consider what I have said. I do not form opinions lightly. They mostly come about because of deep reflection, life experience, and observing human nature. I suppose my seeming defensive is my immaturity with confrontation and debate, as I have (as I just stated in another thread this am) largely tended to avoid sharing my opinions with others, as there is neither the opportunity to, or no one is interested, or people ignorantly and blindly believe in some inferior notion.

In short, I do know better than others about many things. Especially in matters surrounding, or bordering on, metaphysical realms, life life and birth and soulfulness. If others do not see it, that is their problem.

:queenie:
 

Eileen

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^People should die a natural death. Whatever that is. I disagree with assisted suicide. I also disagree with pumping with meds to alleviate pain. When one experiences pain, one's endogenous endorphins kick in anyway, producing--I'd make an educated guess at--the ideal state for some sort of sub-conscious reflective state, passing from this side to the other. The entire process is necessary. To cut into any part of that is not ideal, and weak.

So, are you averse to hospice, which uses palliative medicine only, as a person dies in his or her own time?

And in all of these posts, are you suggesting that there should be *laws* which dictate the legality of such things (assisted suicide, unassisted suicide, palliative end-of-life care, choices about life support, etc)? I think that what I'm hearing from "the other side" of this argument is alarm at the thought of there being one answer to all individuals' end of life needs (though I could be wrong about that, so those of you who object to that characterization should correct me).
 
A

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There's an enveloping presence of despair that comes after scrolling through all of the numbers in your phone and realizing that there's no one who will understand.
 

Lexicon

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When I state an opinion, I expect others to sit up and take notice, and to respectfully consider what I have said. I do not form opinions lightly. They mostly come about because of deep reflection, life experience, and observing human nature. I suppose my seeming defensive is my immaturity with confrontation and debate, as I have (as I just stated in another thread this am) largely tended to avoid sharing my opinions with others, as there is neither the opportunity to, or no one is interested, or people ignorantly and blindly believe in some inferior notion.

In short, I do know better about things than others about many things. Especially in matters surrounding, or bordering on metaphysical realms, life life and birth and soulfulness. If others do not see it, that is their problem.

:queenie:

No one's really questioning your knowledge of your own beliefs regarding the more abstract realm.
As I said, just trying to understand. I always think it's interesting to compare contrasting ideas, especially when it's two people of the same MBTI type-- and moreso when the topic is highly controversial in general.
 

1487610420

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There's an enveloping presence of despair that comes after scrolling through all of the numbers in your phone and realizing that there's no one who will understand.

That's when you go on typoc and start a thread.

Unless it's about suicide. :sartre:
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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So, are you averse to hospice, which uses palliative medicine only, as a person dies in his or her own time?

Actually, yes. I am averse to most meds unless a person really needs them to function in daily life.

Though I give those meds as a nurse. I disagree with doing so. But then, I disagree with pretty much everything in our medical system and way of life.

And in all of these posts, are you suggesting that there should be *laws* which dictate the legality of such things (assisted suicide, unassisted suicide, palliative end-of-life care, choices about life support, etc)? I think that what I'm hearing from "the other side" of this argument is alarm at the thought of there being one answer to all individuals' end of life needs (though I could be wrong about that, so those of you who object to that characterization should correct me).

I think the best thing is to have true informed consent, and education about choices, before a person reaches that point. Like living wills, except more explicit. Most people don't think about becoming brain damaged, or know what long-term care involves if they do. Since we are removed from contemplating death except in sensationalizing it, we need to sort of go out of our way to deal with it. Unlike earlier societies that were more intimate with death and dying, and didn't have as much technology to keep people alive, etc.

Ultimately, I believe in people's free liberty to do as they like. But when those liberties rub against others (as it does when others must keep someone else alive), we need to be doing a better job at defining what that should/would look like I think.

There's an enveloping presence of despair that comes after scrolling through all of the numbers in your phone and realizing that there's no one who will understand.

You must not have my number in your phone. PM me if you want it. :heart:

~A
 

UniqueMixture

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I believe that suicide comes from a sense of hopelessness and despair. Suicide tells us what needs to be changed in society to prevent things from getting to that point for anyone. Of course in shame societies honor suicide is done for very different reasons. I think it is healthier on the whole to experience grief, loss, and sorrow and reinterpret it so that it has less power over the individual. I am not sure about physician assisted suicide in a more abstract way. From a more tangible pov I think it should be allowed in terminal illness with great pain if the individual seeks it.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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No one's really questioning your knowledge of your own beliefs regarding the more abstract realm.
As I said, just trying to understand. I always think it's interesting to compare contrasting ideas, especially when it's two people of the same MBTI type-- and moreso when the topic is highly controversial in general.

I agree. I love to talk about all things.


I just dislike having to apologize about my style. Perhaps you touched on a nerve. Why can ExTJs get away with being asses but I get called on simple stating a vociferous opinion. :shock: Not just speaking to you, speaking in general.

Why do the rudest and crudest people get lauded for 'having a heart of gold, if you only knew him' but someone who truly cares about others all the time, and wants the best for humanity, gets called a bitch for stating her opinion? Why is that?
 
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