Tolerance as the Ironically Oppressive Value System

[Qlip]

I actually do believe in a type of moral relativity. It doesn't change the fact that my morals serve my own vision. In a perfect world, there is only one right vision. In an imperfect world there are several varying degrees of incompatible right visions. Either way, I know where I stand. In my vision, endless and cyclical banter on the internet achieves no good.

 

[UniqueMixture]

So basically you just want the freedom to be a debbie downer w/o being mocked?

 

[Thalassa]

So basically you just want the freedom to be a debbie downer w/o being mocked?

What are you talking about? I think you're a troll. That's not what I mean at all, I think this conversation may be a little over your head.

 

[Thalassa]

I actually do believe in a type of moral relativity. It doesn't change the fact that my morals serve my own vision. In a perfect world, there is only one right vision. In an imperfect world there are several varying degrees of incompatible right visions. Either way, I know where I stand. In my vision, endless and cyclical banter on the internet achieves no good.

But the Internet is a microcosm of the greater world, and it reveals the mindset of "enforced tolerance" that is taking place, in varying Western nations - not just in terms of multi-culturalism taken to the extreme of insanity in some Western European countries, but the idea that even on discussion forums there may be a strong undertone of people using the term "closed-minded" in precisely the way [MENTION=4490]Orangey[/MENTION] pointed out.

 

[Rasofy]

Could you Fi a little bit softer?

Who are you?

 

[UniqueMixture]

You said you wanted the freedom to express negative opinions in spite of how this may instigate others, yet you see no irony in complaining that others trod on on your feelings when this is done to you. Yeah, this is over MY head 9_9

 

[Thalassa]

You said you wanted the freedom to express negative opinions in spite of how this may instigate others, yet you see no irony in complaining that others trod on on your feelings when this is done to you. Yeah, this is over MY head 9_9

No that's not what I'm talking about at all. I'm NOT talking about ME, SPECIFICALLY. I think you're having a hard time with that concept. Everyone should be allowed to express negative opinions. That's fine. People can express negative opinions all they like, and I'm not talking about people mocking other people...if anything, I'm talking about attempting to morally coerce people into shutting up and playing nice instead of honestly disagreeing. And disagreeing doesn't involve personal attacks.

You're trying to turn this into a thread about personal attacks, in fact you started making them from your second post. In your first post, though, you were already playing "thought police" by saying that people should only express positive value judgements, so you indeed are part of this "tolerance" problem, especially after presuming someone who believes that being positive all the time is intellectually dishonest and morally weak is some kind of fascist that believes all people should be one way.

You're not even discussing the idea, but me. I think the reason you can't discuss the idea, is because you support enforced tolerance. I mean, anyone who says "we should only say positive things" pretty much is part of the gold star club problem.

 

[Qlip]

But the Internet is a microcosm of the greater world, and it reveals the mindset of "enforced tolerance" that is taking place, in varying Western nations - not just in terms of multi-culturalism taken to the extreme of insanity in some Western European countries, but the idea that even on discussion forums there may be a strong undertone of people using the term "closed-minded" in precisely the way [MENTION=4490]Orangey[/MENTION] pointed out.

I guess the only real 'enforcement' i see happening here is a kind of societal cold shoulder, or dismissal. If that's the worst of it, then I'd say it's a bearable form of oppression. As a Ne user, the most I can ask for is that everybody is able to get their say if they so choose to say it, and not be too strong armed around in if and how they choose to express themselves. I don't know if that fits within your oppressive tolerance parameters, or not.

In rl, I get angry and active when things like that start interfering with my mode of living.. my way to feed myself and be myself. Multiculturalism hasn't gotten in my way, but I probably dont run in the right circles for it the affect me.

Honestly, I don't understand any of how human nature and culture works in the big picture.. and I'm puzzled at those who claim they do. I'm incredulous at those who 'know' the absolute right now, I'm dubious about how anybody can predict how our approaches will affect the microcosm when we can barely guess what will happen to us on the street tomorrow, especially since the more I learn, the less I feel I understand. Culture is an ever changing animal, hopefully morphing towards our needs and sometimes taking monstrous forms in the process. And really, multiculturalism is really just a sham, it's just an effective foil to further specific interests, those pushing it will only be tolerant enough. I'm sure this is part of your problem with it, the hypocrisy.

 

[Gish]

Marmie is TypoC's own Ayn Rand.

 

[1487610420]

I guess the only real 'enforcement' i see happening here is a kind of societal cold shoulder, or dismissal. If that's the worst of it, then I'd say it's a bearable form of oppression. As a Ne user, the most I can ask for is that everybody is able to get their say if they so choose to say it, and not be too strong armed around in if and how they choose to express themselves. I don't know if that fits within your oppressive tolerance parameters, or not.

In rl, I get angry and active when things like that start interfering with my mode of living.. my way to feed myself and be myself. Multiculturalism hasn't gotten in my way, but I probably dont run in the right circles for it the affect me.

Honestly, I don't understand any of how human nature and culture works in the big picture.. and I'm puzzled at those who claim they do. I'm incredulous at those who 'know' the absolute right now, I'm dubious about how anybody can predict how our approaches will affect the microcosm when we can barely guess what will happen to us on the street tomorrow, especially since the more I learn, the less I feel I understand. Culture is an ever changing animal, hopefully morphing towards our needs and sometimes taking monstrous forms in the process. And really, multiculturalism is really just a sham, it's just an effective foil to further specific interests, those pushing it will only be tolerant enough. I'm sure this is part of your problem with it, the hypocrisy.

It's them knowitall Ni freaks, they're the ones behind it.

 

[Qlip]

It's them knowitall Ni freaks, they're the ones behind it.

Well, you're not all that far from the mark. They know how the achieve a goal, because it's achievement that they are after. But how do you decide which goal is worthy to achieve? Especially for everyone? Ah, okay.. way to much Perceiving here, that's just how I operate.

 

[Thalassa]

I guess the only real 'enforcement' i see happening here is a kind of societal cold shoulder, or dismissal. If that's the worst of it, then I'd say it's a bearable form of oppression.

As a Ne user, the most I can ask for is that everybody is able to get their say if they so choose to say it, and not be too strong armed around in if and how they choose to express themselves. I don't know if that fits within your oppressive tolerance parameters, or not.

In rl, I get angry and active when things like that start interfering with my mode of living.. my way to feed myself and be myself. Multiculturalism hasn't gotten in my way, but I probably dont run in the right circles for it the affect me.

Honestly, I don't understand any of how human nature and culture works in the big picture.. and I'm puzzled at those who claim they do. I'm incredulous at those who 'know' the absolute right now, I'm dubious about how anybody can predict how our approaches will affect the microcosm when we can barely guess what will happen to us on the street tomorrow, especially since the more I learn, the less I feel I understand. Culture is an ever changing animal, hopefully morphing towards our needs and sometimes taking monstrous forms in the process. And really, multiculturalism is really just a sham, it's just an effective foil to further specific interests, those pushing it will only be tolerant enough. I'm sure this is part of your problem with it, the hypocrisy.

Yes, it's the hypocrisy that bugs me, the irony of it all, that "tolerance" has become the "right" thing to believe instead of "man and woman only should be married" or "blacks and whites should stay apart." It sounds good on the surface, that "tolerance" has become the "right" but the fact is that underneath this facade of "tolerance" is still intolerance toward things they don't agree with, for example my complete flabbergasted response to the people who were allowed to openly bash Zionist Jews, but I was temp-banned for a month and accused of trolling because I suggested that multi-cult in Western Europe had begun to become impractical, all the while saying I didn't want to hurt or oppress any particular group, or press my own values into their countries. It's very strange to me. There IS a societally "correct" morality now, and it extends far beyond "don't hate people because of the color of their skin or who they love" ...it's become really odd...but yeah, you get it, it's the hypocrisy.

I study culture by looking at patterns in history. I'm hugely into history and into how various constructs have manifested in other countries and in other time periods, so I believe that we can see that certain trends (because of human nature, and how humans have consistently always behaved biologically and sociologically) will lead to xyz.

I think we should be hopeful without being too idealistic, there's a point where saying "all morality is relative" becomes very stupid and destructive, in my opinion, because we can observe cause and effect.

 

[Thalassa]

Marmie is TypoC's own Ayn Rand.

Fantastic. I've gotten an upgrade from "female liberal Rush Limbaugh" (my own self-deprecating observation of myself five years ago) to "TypeC's own Ayn Rand."

I'm moving up in the world.

 

[Thalassa]

It's them knowitall Ni freaks, they're the ones behind it.

It's interesting you say that, because I think our current societal idea of perfection is actually NFJ. ENFJ to be exact. I think the Big Five - which is used by the psychiatric community while MBTI and Jungian personality theory is ignored - basically presumes the healthiest, ideal person is an ENFJ.

 

[UniqueMixture]

No that's not what I'm talking about at all. I'm NOT talking about ME, SPECIFICALLY. I think you're having a hard time with that concept. Everyone should be allowed to express negative opinions. That's fine. People can express negative opinions all they like, and I'm not talking about people mocking other people...if anything, I'm talking about attempting to morally coerce people into shutting up and playing nice instead of honestly disagreeing. And disagreeing doesn't involve personal attacks.

You're trying to turn this into a thread about personal attacks, in fact you started making them from your second post. In your first post, though, you were already playing "thought police" by saying that people should only express positive value judgements, so you indeed are part of this "tolerance" problem, especially after presuming someone who believes that being positive all the time is intellectually dishonest and morally weak is some kind of fascist that believes all people should be one way.

You're not even discussing the idea, but me. I think the reason you can't discuss the idea, is because you support enforced tolerance. I mean, anyone who says "we should only say positive things" pretty much is part of the gold star club problem.

No. I was suggesting that as a way of avoiding the unnecessary conflict you seem to attract to yourself everywhere you go. It was a "tip" not a rule. Often the solution to a problem involves reinterpretation of the "meaning" of the scenario which disturbs YOU.

I like how I became the instigator because you stating that my idea was morally weak was not an attack 9_9.

 

[Thalassa]

No. I was suggesting that as a way of avoiding the unnecessary conflict you seem to attract to yourself everywhere you go. It was a "tip" not a rule. Often the solution to a problem involves reinterpretation of the "meaning" of the scenario which disturbs YOU.

I'm not sure what your concern is with me, I think if I truly wanted less conflict I'd stop engaging in battles with people. Derp.

Now go play in the street, kid.

 

[Thalassa]

Does anyone else see the irony of this person "advising" me to stop engaging in arguments with people whilst repeatedly trying to personally engage me, thereby pulling himself into a conflict?

Oh Internet.

 

[UniqueMixture]

The only person I've had conflict w on this website is you and I do not have psycho stalkers following me through forums because I don't create this kind of drama in my personal life. Derp. Of course, I'm wrong I'm sure somehow in some way. It couldn't POSSIBLY be that "the ham" isn't just seeking more attention to fuel her psychosis lol.

 

[Totenkindly]

It's them knowitall Ni freaks, they're the ones behind it.

The Knights knew it all along (that's why they kept saying Ni!)

 

[Thalassa]

The only person I've had conflict w on this website is you and I do not have psycho stalkers following me through forums because I don't create this kind of drama in my personal life. Derp. Of course, I'm wrong I'm sure somehow in some way. It couldn't POSSIBLY be that "the ham" isn't just seeking more attention to fuel her psychosis lol.

Why are you stalking me, then? Are you calling yourself a psycho stalker? What is your problem? You're continuing to try to talk to me, you jump into conversations that don't even involve you just to address ME GLORIOUS ME...?

You're just making yourself look stupid. Imma let you finish.