Six Facts Plainly Revealed in The Gospel

[A window to the soul]

Do you want to play the I Was Right Game with me?

Oh, look at the time. Sorry, something just came up...

 

[prplchknz]

olk so does this bother anyone else he says the gospel, which are matthew,mark,luke, and john but quotes verses from other parts of the bible.

 

[Lark]

Yes, but WHY?

What did he accomplish on the cross? Anything?

He was God incarnate, come to share in the experience of life and the experience of death, it was and is what sets apart the Abrahamic traditions' God from any other conception of God that there is.

Its why the cross is an important symbol, it symbolises that God is not a distant wonder to be feared and in awe of but one of us, capable of sharing in life and death like us. I think that this still happens and that through each of us God experiences his creation and that is our purpose, not to flatter God, who needs no flattery, but made in his image and sharing of his essence, not in the way that Jesus did though.

The idea that Jesus was a sacrificial lamb to wipe out sin is fundamentally flawed, it is within God's power to wipe out sin, to make sure sin just never happens and I believe that would have been the consequence of Jesus' death if it were the case that he was sent for that purpose. He died because of sin. Sin is the rejection of God.

Rejection of him in the shape of your fellow man or creation, creation more generally or life, living and love but also rejection of God in the sense of a benevolent deity. It happens all the time, understandable perhaps when people have no direct experience and doubt over rides everything else, apart from this one time when it did LITERALLY happen, he was here in person and people did have direct experience of him.

The saviour aspect is that Jesus evidenced the living God, that should remove fear and doubt, he provided simplified and sought to popularise teachings which will make this heaven for everyone if consistently practiced by all, although we have to save ourselves too because we have to hear, reflect and practice, afterall its us that are the source of sin. Would sin exist if mankind didnt? No sin wouldnt, how could it? Does sin exist in the natural world, no instinct and impulse does but cognition and affect and decision in the way that it does in humans, we're the only ones like that.

 

[Beorn]

Personally, what I find more profound is that he willingly went on the cross in the first place. There is the salvation message that emphasizes the act as cosmic and sacrificial and providing atonement in some mysterious way, but I wish people would talk about how much he demonstrates here in a down to earth way. It's something I find much more difficult to do than simply believe.

The Last Supper speech...the last message he wanted to pound into his disciples' heads... is that they must each be servants to each other. That that was how they would truly be his followers. He didn't say just believe in him. He wanted them to be "excellent to each other". Oh wait, that was Bill and Ted.... nevermind.

It depends on how you view it. It wasn't just a service to mankind, it was also obedience to God the father in the face of something he clearly did not want to experience... "take this cup (of wrath) from me."

But, people don't like hearing about obeying authority unto suffering.

To me the under emphasized part of the story is the resurrection. It's a pretty depressing story if you leave Christ in the grave and don't emphasize the victory over death.

 

[Lark]

What inclines you to such a high view of human ability or low view of God's demands?

God makes no demands of man, man makes demands of God and God answers. Most of the time.

I have a high view of human ability? I dont think ability has anything to do with it but I have a high view of humanity, precisely because God does, because we are made in God's image each of us, because humanity matters to God in scriptures and to Jesus/God incarnate when he was here.

You make God's relationship to man sound like a celestial or cosmic kiing, that is why I say it sounds like Zeus in mount olympus, God's relationship to man is like that of unrequited love or the love someone has for someone out of their mind or insensible, the love that doesnt quit.

Hell in this life or the next is estrangement from God, I dont believe in seperate places or fates or finality, these are human, all to human precepts and formulas, God is capable of more than that.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

I have been working my way through the Bible for the first time in my life. I am enjoying it immensely, and I find it helps center me every day, to read about God and Godly intentions.


I cannot seem to embrace the notion that Jesus is the son of God though, at least not in a way that is different than any one of us being the son of God. And I really cannot believe he rose from the dead to ascend into Heaven; it is just too hard for me to suspend my disbelief enough to buy that.


I also somewhat feel, that since the Bible was written by men, that it almost feels like a barrier in some ways to God. I prefer to hear God speak directly to me in the ways I hear him best (my intuition, etc), versus taking as Divine words in a book written by people who lived ? 2000 years ago? I mean, how do we really know that God felt that way about Jesus. We really only have Jesus' word for it (that he was the son of God), and the mystery of his body's disappearance from his burial tomb (which, from what I understand, was unguarded for those few days).


I think it's holier to feel that one-on-one intimate connection with God, than to let the Bible come between us, though, like I said, I think the Bible is a great tool for the deliverence of God's Divine message and love for us, and an epic historical document.

 

[KDude]

I have been working my way through the Bible for the first time in my life. I am enjoying it immensely, and I find it helps center me every day, to read about God and Godly intentions.


I cannot seem to embrace the notion that Jesus is the son of God though, at least not in a way that is different than any one of us being the son of God. And I really cannot believe he rose from the dead to ascend into Heaven; it is just too hard for me to suspend my disbelief enough to buy that.


I also somewhat feel, that since the Bible was written by men, that it almost feels like a barrier in some ways to God. I prefer to hear God speak directly to me in the ways I hear him best (my intuition, etc), versus taking as Divine words in a book written by people who lived ? 2000 years ago? I mean, how do we really know that God felt that way about Jesus. We really only have Jesus' word for it (that he was the son of God), and the mystery of his body's disappearance from his burial tomb (which, from what I understand, was unguarded for those few days).


I think it's holier to feel that one-on-one intimate connection with God, than to let the Bible come between us, though, like I said, I think the Bible is a great tool for the deliverence of God's Divine message and love for us, and an epic historical document.

Good luck. It's a lot to digest, I know.

I think Spurgeon will condemn you to hell though. Let me just get his trolling out of the way for you: It's a sin to "search". You must testify fully right here before Spurgeon of the Six Facts Plainly Revealed.. or it's bye-bye time for you.

:hi:

 

[Beorn]

You make God's relationship to man sound like a celestial or cosmic kiing, that is why I say it sounds like Zeus in mount olympus, God's relationship to man is like that of unrequited love or the love someone has for someone out of their mind or insensible, the love that doesnt quit.

I can imagine reading the NT alone and maybe coming to your position if I also had some other outside influence on my thought.

I think though, that if you read the OT and NT together it becomes very apparent that God is the King and that justice demands that we serve him and not that he serve us. Yet, as you note above he has humbled himself and sought after us and sought to serve us. This is exactly why you see the wedding analogy in scripture where Christ is the dutiful bridegroom and the church is a whore of a bride.

 

[Lark]

It depends on how you view it. It wasn't just a service to mankind, it was also obedience to God the father in the face of something he clearly did not want to experience... "take this cup (of wrath) from me."

But, people don't like hearing about obeying authority unto suffering.

To me the under emphasized part of the story is the resurrection. It's a pretty depressing story if you leave Christ in the grave and don't emphasize the victory over death.

I do think that obedience to legitimate authority is an important thing, I do think that it can involve suffering and is as worthy of dying for as fighting illegitimate authority or oppression.

However, I dont see it being that way exactly, the whole detailed recording of events from the moment of Jesus arrest, the trial, the role of the seperate authorities, Hebrew and Roman, is all there for a reason and its NOT recriminations. I believe it is because right up until and including the last moments of Jesus it did not have to be that way.

Any of the soldiers, onlookers, others could have tried to stop it but they didnt but there is no need to believe that it was a fatalistic predestined sequence of events. What it is is a record of the failings of humankind, we dont live up to what we could be or should be, we fall short and are imperfect despite the potential (that's what infuriated Lucifer et al and lead to their betrayal of God).

It happened because both Jesus and God had hope and trusted in man's better selves. They still do and always will, until mankind is worthy of it. Then perhaps finally a world will exist in which the prescence of God can return and finally God himself.

 

[Lark]

I have been working my way through the Bible for the first time in my life. I am enjoying it immensely, and I find it helps center me every day, to read about God and Godly intentions.


I cannot seem to embrace the notion that Jesus is the son of God though, at least not in a way that is different than any one of us being the son of God. And I really cannot believe he rose from the dead to ascend into Heaven; it is just too hard for me to suspend my disbelief enough to buy that.


I also somewhat feel, that since the Bible was written by men, that it almost feels like a barrier in some ways to God. I prefer to hear God speak directly to me in the ways I hear him best (my intuition, etc), versus taking as Divine words in a book written by people who lived ? 2000 years ago? I mean, how do we really know that God felt that way about Jesus. We really only have Jesus' word for it (that he was the son of God), and the mystery of his body's disappearance from his burial tomb (which, from what I understand, was unguarded for those few days).


I think it's holier to feel that one-on-one intimate connection with God, than to let the Bible come between us, though, like I said, I think the Bible is a great tool for the deliverence of God's Divine message and love for us, and an epic historical document.

This is interesting, while I dont agree entirely I think it is more insightful than biblical literalism.

 

[KDude]

Spurgeon is God's sole Middle Manager. Here to deliver progress reports to the "higher ups". Testify to him.. and you might live and increase your penny wages. He is your salvation.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

Good luck. It's a lot to digest, I know.

I think Spurgeon will condemn you to hell though. Let me just get his trolling out of the way for you: It's a sin to "search". You must testify fully right here before Spurgeon of the Six Facts Plainly Revealed.. or it's bye-bye time for you.

:hi:

Yeah. I agree about humans being inherently flawed and imperfect. But I disagree about how it is ameliorated through Christ only. Unless God wrote those words himself in the Bible, I cannot believe strange men, no matter how spiritual or Godly, to know better what God is about, than me. And you. And anyone else who is a child of God.

 

[93JC]

I could be mistaken since I base my knowledge on a book called The Compleat Enchanter which featured someone travelling to that reality, fantastic book but wouldnt vouch for its accuracy in terms of relating norse myths.

You base your knowledge of the Æsir on some book? Some fictional tale?

If I were you I would make Thor an offering, to appeal for his forgiveness of your ignorance, lest he smite you with Mjolnir!

 

[KDude]

Why don't you guys read Marvel comics? Everything you need to know about Thor.

 

[Beorn]

I have been working my way through the Bible for the first time in my life. I am enjoying it immensely, and I find it helps center me every day, to read about God and Godly intentions.


I cannot seem to embrace the notion that Jesus is the son of God though, at least not in a way that is different than any one of us being the son of God. And I really cannot believe he rose from the dead to ascend into Heaven; it is just too hard for me to suspend my disbelief enough to buy that.


I also somewhat feel, that since the Bible was written by men, that it almost feels like a barrier in some ways to God. I prefer to hear God speak directly to me in the ways I hear him best (my intuition, etc), versus taking as Divine words in a book written by people who lived ? 2000 years ago? I mean, how do we really know that God felt that way about Jesus. We really only have Jesus' word for it (that he was the son of God), and the mystery of his body's disappearance from his burial tomb (which, from what I understand, was unguarded for those few days).


I think it's holier to feel that one-on-one intimate connection with God, than to let the Bible come between us, though, like I said, I think the Bible is a great tool for the deliverence of God's Divine message and love for us, and an epic historical document.

Yeah, all of those are points at which reason ceases to be useful and faith must takehold.

What is God's divine message and love for us that you believe is conveyed in the bible?

This is interesting, while I dont agree entirely I think it is more insightful than biblical literalism.

how so?

Also, do you have a better term than "biblical literalism" as it's not really very descriptive of the the view you're referring to.

 

[Lark]

I can imagine reading the NT alone and maybe coming to your position if I also had some other outside influence on my thought.

I think though, that if you read the OT and NT together it becomes very apparent that God is the King and that justice demands that we serve him and not that he serve us. Yet, as you note above he has humbled himself and sought after us and sought to serve us. This is exactly why you see the wedding analogy in scripture where Christ is the dutiful bridegroom and the church is a whore of a bride.

I hope I dont seem sectarian in saying this but I think within Protestant theology there is a terrible sort of AA style rehabilitative pattern going on, people live a life, they then get on a terrible guilt trip and decide to change their ways, it even goest to the reading of the bible.

God of the old testament seems like a bit of a tyrant, in the new testament he's either a totally different guy or a guy who has undergone the same sort of bizarro change of heart and personality doing just about anything to make amends, including offering his son for sacrifice, like what he once asked of Abraham.

Anyway, I dont buy that, I'm well versed in the old testament, probably more versed in it than the new testament besides the Gospels of Mark, Matthew and the books of James and Revelation, my favourite books of the old testament are Amos, Isaiah, Sirach, Habakkuk, Maccabees, I'm not sure of the book which Gideon appears in but that one too. I see Jesus as part of the rabbinic and prophetic tradition, entirely consistent with it and correcting some of the more anthropomorphic and war God ideas.

 

[Beorn]

I do think that obedience to legitimate authority is an important thing, I do think that it can involve suffering and is as worthy of dying for as fighting illegitimate authority or oppression.

However, I dont see it being that way exactly, the whole detailed recording of events from the moment of Jesus arrest, the trial, the role of the seperate authorities, Hebrew and Roman, is all there for a reason and its NOT recriminations. I believe it is because right up until and including the last moments of Jesus it did not have to be that way.

Any of the soldiers, onlookers, others could have tried to stop it but they didnt but there is no need to believe that it was a fatalistic predestined sequence of events. What it is is a record of the failings of humankind, we dont live up to what we could be or should be, we fall short and are imperfect despite the potential (that's what infuriated Lucifer et al and lead to their betrayal of God).

It happened because both Jesus and God had hope and trusted in man's better selves. They still do and always will, until mankind is worthy of it. Then perhaps finally a world will exist in which the prescence of God can return and finally God himself.

Yet, in the garden of Gethsemane Jesus relied on what was possible with God and not man. Moreover, if Jesus was trusting in man why did he ask God not to have the "cup" taken away?

Mark 14:36 And he said, "Abba, Father, all things are possible for you. Remove this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will."

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

Yeah, all of those are points at which reason ceases to be useful and faith must takehold.

What is God's divine message and love for us that you believe is conveyed in the bible?

Well, when the Bible speaks to how God is Love especially, but I agree that God can punish as well. The Divine message being that God is the three O's...When that is supported in the Bible, I concur, and enjoy reading it. But when the Bible says something completely antithetical to how I know or feel God to be, then, yeah, I have to go with my own interpretation. Such as there needing to be one way for salvation only--through Christ, etc. Or that the be all, end all of believing in God is to get to Heaven. I think the point is to create Heaven on earth inasmuch as that is possible. At least it's a nice goal. The way the Bible holds Heaven up as the pinnacle of Utopia, makes me just think of dangling carrots....for the masses, and is but another example which makes me feel like the early authors/disciples were missing the whole point of God (at times).

 

[Lark]

You base your knowledge of the Æsir on some book? Some fictional tale?

If I were you I would make Thor an offering, to appeal for his forgiveness of your ignorance, lest he smite you with Mjolnir!

It is a false religion and pantheon, if it is real then those are lesser deities than my God.

 

[Lark]

Yet, in the garden of Gethsemane Jesus relied on what was possible with God and not man. Moreover, if Jesus was trusting in man why did he ask God not to have the "cup" taken away?

Mark 14:36 And he said, "Abba, Father, all things are possible for you. Remove this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will."

This was Mark who was asleep at the time?