Is there such a thing as true monotheism ?

[EcK]

Hi there,

See when I look at ancient polytheistic pantheons you generally have some creator deity or at least an origin story (maelstrom etc). The pantheon then evolves into more gods or the other way around, some spirits are connected to world events and then unified into a pantheon.
Now what monotheism does is that it often fails at really unifying the world's happenings and structure under one 'grand being'.
Take Christianity, with which I am familiar as I was raised in a Christian family. There is a god that is in fact 3 different beings, angels, archangels, demons, a Devil and representatives for different concepts just like in polytheistic society (love, patron saints ...)

It seems to me that religions have been following the path of unification in the same way science and most other things do. The rise of communication, travel, increasing knowledge about the universe, trade etc. stimulates the idea that the universe has a unique underlying logic but just as in science we are not quite there yet.


discuss!

 

[reason]

What?

 

[Coriolis]

I consider myself a monotheist in that I see a single divine force in the universe. All those pantheons, and the trinity, are just so many manifestations of that single divine: the many ways it has revealed itself to us humans in various times, settings, and cultures. I am sure many believers saw them as independent beings. Human accounts ascribe to these pantheons all the passions, deceptions, petty jealousies, and compassion we humans manifest. A great example of man making God in his own image. Ultimately it is a matter of belief. If we are coming now to recognize the common thread, or divine spark, in all these manifestations, perhaps it is because as a species we are collectively growing up. We are finally realizing we are all touching the same elephant.

 

[Lark]

Yes.

 

[Qlip]

Judaism has a heck of a lot invested philosophy-wise in the whole one god concept. There's no trinity, no Zororastrian devil, angels are not independent/individual beings.

 

[Stanton Moore]

No. because there is no godhead.

 

[Coriolis]

Judaism has a heck of a lot invested philosophy-wise in the whole one god concept. There's no trinity, no Zororastrian devil, angels are not independent/individual beings.

What about the Shekinah?

 

[EcK]

Judaism has a heck of a lot invested philosophy-wise in the whole one god concept. There's no trinity, no Zororastrian devil, angels are not independent/individual beings.

I consider myself a monotheist in that I see a single divine force in the universe. All those pantheons, and the trinity, are just so many manifestations of that single divine: the many ways it has revealed itself to us humans in various times, settings, and cultures. I am sure many believers saw them as independent beings. Human accounts ascribe to these pantheons all the passions, deceptions, petty jealousies, and compassion we humans manifest. A great example of man making God in his own image. Ultimately it is a matter of belief. If we are coming now to recognize the common thread, or divine spark, in all these manifestations, perhaps it is because as a species we are collectively growing up. We are finally realizing we are all touching the same elephant.

Yeah but if it's all one aspect of the same thing then Satan is God. Isn't that disagreeing with Christian dogma where the new testament god is supposed to be well meaning and loving and all that. I mean I do not say that you guys are Christian but in the context of Christianity don't you find it problematic?

 

[Qlip]

Yeah but if it's all one aspect of the same thing then Satan is God. Isn't that disagreeing with Christian dogma where the new testament god is supposed to be well meaning and loving and all that. I mean I do not say that you guys are Christian but in the context of Christianity don't you find it problematic?

What about the Shekinah?

Yeah, I suppose you can say that Judaism does have something seeming like a pantheon of Angels and Demons, and aspects of God. And, really, Judaism did start out as religion with a pantheon, but they made a conscious choice to be Monotheistic. There is a tradition of many many Rabbis, philosphers of their times, discussing this very topic.

Anyway, I'm not Jewish, I just find the subject highly interesting.

 

[Coriolis]

Yeah but if it's all one aspect of the same thing then Satan is God. Isn't that disagreeing with Christian dogma where the new testament god is supposed to be well meaning and loving and all that. I mean I do not say that you guys are Christian but in the context of Christianity don't you find it problematic?

Even in the Christian myths, Satan was originally an angel who fell from grace, so in a sense it is all part of the same entity. I do not believe in Satan as such, though, and do not worry about consistency with Christian dogma, since I am not Christian. These types of inconsistencies are part of why I cannot embrace a Christian spiritual view.

 

[LEGERdeMAIN]

There's a clear separation between "god" and "angels". God is the creator, angels are a part of creation. Humans, planets, bacteria, granite are all things god created. God was never created, he has always been. Some christian sects seem to believe in a trinity, which is not necessarily polytheist if it's taken to represent different aspects of god. It seems like the trinity just represents different facets of god's personality, except with Catholics who seem to believe in a three-part god figure with several minor deities, just like pagans.

 

[Qlip]

It's important to demark between Christianity and Judiasm. Even though one stems from another, they have very different viewpoints. For instance in Judaism, angels are not so much a creation, but an extension of the will of God, including Satan. First hit on Google: Do Jews Believe in Satan? <--- The article even addresses the relationship between Satan and Monotheism.

Here is a more theological point of view: Who is Satan?

EDIT: If you can tell, I didn't actually read the articles before I posted them. I recommending going straight to the second one. Here's a biblical quote that the Rabbi used to make his point, and is germane to Eck's questions:

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7)

 

[Turquoise Bones]

Deism

 

[Totenkindly]

There's a clear separation between "god" and "angels". God is the creator, angels are a part of creation. Humans, planets, bacteria, granite are all things god created. God was never created, he has always been. Some christian sects seem to believe in a trinity, which is not necessarily polytheist if it's taken to represent different aspects of god. It seems like the trinity just represents different facets of god's personality, except with Catholics who seem to believe in a three-part god figure with several minor deities, just like pagans.

Actually, the Trinity is a paradoxical concept, just when they say that Jesus was fully human, fully divine. Same thing -- God is a community entity, separate facets that stand on their own and yet all part of the same gemstone. Or maybe you'd do better to think about like that drawing of the rabbit/duck or the old/young woman... one picture, but the full picture includes full other pictures within it.

Anyway, like you said earlier, there is a very CLEAR delineation between the "creator" and the "created" in those faiths, so I'm not sure why some people are trying to blend them all together as if the distinction is irrelevant. Lucifer (well, according to the various mythos that have developed) was a fallen created being.

 

[Ginkgo]

Hi there,

See when I look at ancient polytheistic pantheons you generally have some creator deity or at least an origin story (maelstrom etc). The pantheon then evolves into more gods or the other way around, some spirits are connected to world events and then unified into a pantheon.
Now what monotheism does is that it often fails at really unifying the world's happenings and structure under one 'grand being'.
Take Christianity, with which I am familiar as I was raised in a Christian family. There is a god that is in fact 3 different beings, angels, archangels, demons, a Devil and representatives for different concepts just like in polytheistic society (love, patron saints ...)

It seems to me that religions have been following the path of unification in the same way science and most other things do. The rise of communication, travel, increasing knowledge about the universe, trade etc. stimulates the idea that the universe has a unique underlying logic but just as in science we are not quite there yet.


discuss!

Just because a religious doctrine attributes a divine nature to something else other than its god doesn't mean that its god ceases to be its only god. It only means there is a similarity between the god and other entities. Maybe if the god is already denoted as including everything else, like a pantheistic idea, while at the same time holding that another entity is completely separate, then you have a point. Or maybe if the god is defined as having complete control over everything, when some things act freely, then you have a point. Either way, I wonder if you are trying to bring a criticism to an idea by coupling it with other ideas, when it should be as clear as day that true monotheisms exist; and even if proclaimed followers of those monotheisms dabble and start to introduce other ideas into their personal narratives, it doesn't mean that nobody out there holds a monothesistic worldview.

 

[Lark]

Judaism has a heck of a lot invested philosophy-wise in the whole one god concept. There's no trinity, no Zororastrian devil, angels are not independent/individual beings.

I thought there were twelve demigods or devils and twelve seraphin or angelic hosts. I could be mistaken, wasnt that what the kabbalah was about and I thought that this was the significance of knowing the name of a devil which had possessed someone because with its name it was possible to command it, it being one of the twelves likely candidates.

 

[Lark]

I dont think anyone should confuse complexity with polytheism.

Its a little like saying how is there one head of state when they have subordinate senates or parliaments and then the various branches of administration or the so called deep state into the bargain.

 

[Qlip]

I thought there were twelve demigods or devils and twelve seraphin or angelic hosts. I could be mistaken, wasnt that what the kabbalah was about and I thought that this was the significance of knowing the name of a devil which had possessed someone because with its name it was possible to command it, it being one of the twelves likely candidates.

This is the first I've heard about any of this.. it kind of sounds like the Jewish version of the myth of the Black Mass. There are always folk interpretations of any religion that tend towards the.. shadowy and practical. Like, for instance, Santeria.

 

[Winds of Thor]

Religion is a projection of what some people would have God to be. People create it because they aren't innately powerful as God and therefore want to somehow make up for it. It makes them feel in control vs. being compliant.

Monotheism? I think monotheism stands alone as truth.

Virtually all peoples believe in God. If they could all agree on the one true one, there would be a lot fewer problems.