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Are atheists as important as they think they are

FunnyDigestion

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That isn't meant sarcastically whatsoever.

(& neither was that disclaimer for you paranoids); I'm an atheist, but for me it was a no-brainer. Even as a child I didn't believe in god. I felt sorry for him for not existing.

So I have a quizzical attitude toward those gung-ho atheists who are so vocal & militant. Agnosticism has been a commonplace in western intellectual life for a hundred years so it's peculiar that people could still find the idea revolutionary.

But then I think, maybe they're fighting a cultural battle. After all religion is as old as humanity & maybe releasing its hold on our collective consciousness is something that will take generations of work. & maybe religious ideas are deep in the structure of our institutions & social organization which prevent us from solving problems.

But THEN I think... in all probability the real villains of today have nothing to do with religion, the things to worry about are resource overconsumption, resource misallocation, technological authoritarianism, economic exploitation, etc... & the atheist intellectuals are just a sign that the rich people of the world have too much time on their hands & nothing better to do.

What do you think? Is atheism today an important cultural battle?
 

Qlip

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I honestly don't think so. I mean, last century shows that Godless ideologies are just as destructive and insidious as their counterparts. If I went militant about endorsing something that would make the situation better, it would be tolerance. (heh)
 

wildflower

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i think that the militant form of atheism we are seeing these days is modernism's last gasp, just as calvinism, a type of christianity which is largely based on propositional truth acquired primarily through reason, is. both privilege rationalism. imo we are moving into a postmodern era where truth is localized and pluralized rather than universal in nature. modernism is man-centered and privileges reason whereas postmodernism is more localized and pluralized and is open to the supernatural.
 

miss fortune

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I don't think that I'm all that important... I didn't choose not to be religious, I just simply couldn't believe even though I was raised to. I find religions to be fascinating... how they evolved with society, the ways and strengths with which people have believed over time, the impact of religion on society and vice versa... the art and music that came from religion- the cathedrals, temples, paintings and compositions are awe inspiring. Unfortunately, I find the human created art inspired by religion more awe inspiring than I find the idea of god :doh:

religion and atheism both contribute and detract from the world in the same ways... they are two sides of the same coin and you couldn't really have one without the other for contrast in a way... neither is more or less important than the other :shrug:
 

Orangey

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I would say no because to me it seems passé, but then I see shit like this: Ind. Senate panel votes to let schools teach creationism, If by "Christian love" you mean hatred & contempt...

That said, I like what Hitchens said in his introduction to The Portable Atheist:

"The rejection of the man-made concept of God is not a sufficient condition for intellectual or moral emancipation. Atheists have no right to go around looking superior. They have only fulfilled the necessary condition by throwing off the infancy of the species and disclaiming a special place in the natural scheme."
 

Poki

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Its crazy that there is no "Live and let live" religion. I believe what I want...you believe what you want...I will listen to your beliefs, you will listen to mine...we live seperate lives...religion does not support that though :shrug: Someones wrong, we will MAKE them wrong as we cant really prove any of it right/wrong.


#tiredofjudgementalpeople
 

Qlip

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Its crazy that there is no "Live and let live" religion. I believe what I want...you believe what you want...I will listen to your beliefs, you will listen to mine...we live seperate lives...religion does not support that though :shrug: Someones wrong, we will MAKE them wrong as we cant really prove any of it right/wrong.


#tiredofjudgementalpeople

What makes you think that there aren't any 'live and let live' religions?
 

Poki

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What makes you think that there aren't any 'live and let live' religions?

From what I have seen in churches, they have never lead me to believe that. They accept different denominations, but what if you like the word but dont believe...would they accept that? They just pin you in a hole that goes to Hell...sounds judgmental to me. I wish you the best in "your" heaven would lead me to believe otherwise...never heard that phrase or anything close to it.
 

Domino

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Well, Sir Cauliflowers, many people looked with disdain upon their digestion, and look where THAT got them.
 

Qlip

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From what I have seen in churches, they have never lead me to believe that. They accept different denominations, but what if you like the word but dont believe...would they accept that? They just pin you in a hole that goes to Hell...sounds judgmental to me. I wish you the best in "your" heaven would lead me to believe otherwise...never heard that phrase or anything close to it.

It's the way the universe works, aggressive things are in your face, you notice them.. the other's not so much. There are plenty of religions that are committed to peace and don't believe in damnation. Well, and as far as Christians go, most of them won't stone, tar and feather you, that's really does count for something considering human history. In fact, most of them won't look down at you at all if you aren't Christian.

EDIT: Okay, maybe not most, but a lot.
 

Poki

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It's the way the universe works, aggressive things are in your face, you notice them.. the other's not so much. There are plenty of religions that are committed to peace and don't believe in damnation. Well, and as far as Christians go, most of them won't stone, tar and feather you, that's really does count for something considering human history. In fact, most of them won't look down at you at all if you aren't Christian.

EDIT: Okay, maybe not most, but a lot.

Yeah, I have always pinned that "not looking down on you attitude" and tied it to the person, not the religion. Guess thats where my view of things come from.
 

Rasofy

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Are atheists as important as they think they are
scaled.php

So I have a quizzical attitude toward those gung-ho atheists who are so vocal & militant.
Agnosticism has been a commonplace in western intellectual life for a hundred years so it's peculiar that people could still find the idea revolutionary.
:fpalm: Atheism and agnosticism are very different things.
But THEN I think... in all probability the real villains of today have nothing to do with religion
Ahmadinejad seems to disagree.
ahmadsnnot.png

the things to worry about are resource overconsumption, resource misallocation, technological authoritarianism, economic exploitation, etc...
That's rather arbitrary.
& the atheist intellectuals are just a sign that the rich people of the world have too much time on their hands & nothing better to do.
Boredom is the main fuel of stupidity.
What do you think? Is atheism today an important cultural battle?
Can't tell. Some atheists just want people to recognize they are as peaceful as an average person, some just want the fanaticism to end, and some want everyone to recognize God doesn't exist. The first objective is practicable. The others aren't. Maybe after a couple of generations, but not in ours. The God delusion has very deep roots.
 

wildflower

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Agnosticism has been a commonplace in western intellectual life for a hundred years so it's peculiar that people could still find the idea revolutionary.

i've heard that spiritually, and probably culturally too, what happens in europe will come to the US about 15-20 years later. that seems to be happening currently with the rise of the new atheists. it's in the global south and east where things are really taking off spiritually in christianity these days mostly with charismatics and pentecostals. as far as the church is concerned the center has shifted to the global south and east and is no longer in the west.
 

FunnyDigestion

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Right, it is a loaded question but it's not sarcastic. It's sincere, though incompletely worded, referring to a certain type of atheist. & the rest of the post is completely explicit & unloaded & I want to know people's opinions about the issue. I don't mean to offend any atheists, i myself am an atheist.

If I'd asked that question in a different context, I might have meant it sarcastically, but here I was actually wondering about it (i.e. are those atheists doing important work) which is why I put the disclaimers.
 

FunnyDigestion

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That's rather arbitrary.

huh? Those are the biggest problems facing world civilization. Food shortages, energy crises, exploitation of poor populations, technological dominance. Those don't even compare to some culture-war bullshit about hidden masses of other-side zealots trying to oppress you.

Ahmadinejad is a joke.
 

Orangey

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huh? Those are the biggest problems facing world civilization. Food shortages, energy crises, exploitation of poor populations, technological dominance. Those don't even compare to some culture-war bullshit about hidden masses of other-side zealots trying to oppress you.

Ahmadinejad is a joke.

I think he's saying that there are a lot more problems in the world than simply the four you mentioned; in the absence of any moral justification for the preeminent importance of "food shortages, energy crises, exploitation of poor populations, [and] technological dominance," vague and broad as those problems are themselves, it is arbitrary and ultimately irrelevant to mention them in the context of contemporary religio-political conflict (what's "technological dominance?") Also, I think it's a little naive to characterize this particular "culture war" as meaningless and based solely in some sort of sectarian paranoia. Have you stopped to understand what exactly is at stake in this "war?"
 

redacted

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I don't think atheism is necessarily a useful stance for all people, but I do think openness to new narratives is important. The issue I have with most religions is that they have a built in mechanism to discredit competing narratives via cognitive dissonance (Jews - we are the chosen people, Christians - we get to go to heaven and they don't, etc.). I do think it's important for our future as a species to eventually reject these systems, as I consider them tyrannical in nature.
 

FunnyDigestion

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I think he's saying that there are a lot more problems in the world than simply the four you mentioned; in the absence of any moral justification for the preeminent importance of "food shortages, energy crises, exploitation of poor populations, [and] technological dominance," vague and broad as those problems are themselves, it is arbitrary and ultimately irrelevant to mention them in the context of contemporary religio-political conflict (what's "technological dominance?") Also, I think it's a little naive to characterize this particular "culture war" as meaningless and based solely in some sort of sectarian paranoia. Have you stopped to understand what exactly is at stake in this "war?"

There are more problems but personally I can't see any larger or more difficult ones. Everything in world civilization runs on oil, & that shit aint lasting for more than 50 more years at most unless someone finds an enormous hidden stash somewhere. Food is the principal human need so exploding populations & diminishing margin of return on agricultural productivity due to soil depletion from petrochemicals, pollution, etc. I think are the two biggest, because they're physical limits on the earth itself, the finite area to which all humanity is confined. Surely there are plenty of other problems but I think a lot, maybe most of those are problems principally in that they contribute to the main two with food & energy.

To be honest I very rarely read political news including that involving global affairs anymore so I don't know much about the Islam-Christianity clash-of-civilizations thing now, but Ahmadenijad last I remembered was basically a figurehead to the Ayatollah. Maybe things are a lot different since 2009 or so when I last tried following that melodrama, but it always seemed to me like a lot of people blowing smoke.

By technological dominance / authoritarianism I meant the combination of fascist-type government & technological power-- weapons, surveillance ubiquity, police-state type stuff. But I think that's a lot less likely than food- & energy-related disasters.
 

FunnyDigestion

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But I don't mean to focus on long-term global issues necessarily; when I made the thread I was thinking about more localized, social-institution stuff like what [MENTION=4490]Orangey[/MENTION] posted about the Jessica Ahlquist story. Those are the sorts of things I think about when I encounter really zealous atheists, & which make me reconsider whether their approach is so unnecessary.

I live in the southern part of the US so I've been around both cultural extremes, radical Christian fundamentalist apocalyptics & radical atheist, radical gay-rights (by radical I mean vocal, I don't think any freedom issue is radical), transgender etc. It seems like the extremes usually feed off each other in that each latches onto the worst examples of the other side to fan the flames of their own. Modest, reasonable people who get ostracized by intolerant communities (like Jessica Ahlquist) are probably the best things that can happen for tolerance (just get them to a safe place after people start wanting to burn them at the stake).
 
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