Are atheists as important as they think they are

[Poki]

Any time you're that absolutist, you're further from understanding the Universe and God than pretty much anyone else, imho, because it doesn't allow for any errors on your part, or any 'unknown' knowledge that has yet to be discovered and might completely shift your perspective on the puzzle you're trying to solve.

Scientist or no scientist - hubris is hubris.

Hubris is hubris, but honestly some people are that good and smart. The thing is that scientists are searching for reality so if something comes along and "proves" God they cannot deny. Religion does not have that benefit. Even if something "dis-proves" God they would never believe it. Its not within the teachings.

 

[Amargith]

Hubris is hubris, but honestly some people are that good and smart. The thing is that scientists are searching for reality so if something comes along and "proves" God they cannot deny. Religion does not have that benefit. Even if something "dis-proves" God they would never believe it. Its not within the teachings.

You can still be a moron in one area while being a genius in another. And arrogance does have a way of blinding the crap out of people. Things that I argued with those of the church of Science about for years, which they dismissed as 'ridiculous' at the time, because they were not part of the commonly accepted scientific paradigm at the time, are now being commonly accepted in the scientific community. It's really hard not to roll my eyes at those people now.

Science is an amazing tool. And it' definitely has the potential to - one day- unravel the mysteries of the universe. But that's it - it's a tool, and a very limited one for now, at that. The moment it starts acting like the 10 commandments from God - like we already know everything -, it's no better than any other religion on that front.

 

[Lord Lavender]

You can still be a moron in one area while being a genius in another. And arrogance does have a way of blinding the crap out of people. Things that I argued with those of the church of Science about for years, which they dismissed as 'ridiculous' at the time, because they were not part of the commonly accepted scientific paradigm at the time, are now being commonly accepted in the scientific community. It's really not to roll my eyes at those people now.

Science is an amazing tool. And it' definitely has the potential to - one day- unravel the mysteries of the universe. But that's it - it's a tool, and a very limited one for now, at that. The moment it starts acting like the 10 commandments from God - like we already know everything -, it's no better than any other religion on that front.

To me science is far more legitimate than any religion out there. Religion is based on beliefs that have no basis whatsoever while science is based on facts and observations which we can put to good use. What good is the infomation from the Bible if I want to invent faster than ligth travel. Oh but then we could also see the Bible as science if the acient aliens theory is correct. I have heard that some of the things in the bible could be indicative of aliens using flying craft and from the descriptions of such like reverse engineer them or we could use the story of the 10 plauges to assist in disaster management.

Anyway to go off from my tangent science is a very good tool but I agree with you in that it can also be used for unsavory purposes but we see that wit religion as well and doesnt offer the pros of science except for social order which is an important part of society to stay together. We ought to look for a nice glue type that wont poison people.

 

[Amargith]

To me science is far more legitimate than any religion out there. Religion is based on beliefs that have no basis whatsoever while science is based on facts and observations which we can put to good use. What good is the infomation from the Bible if I want to invent faster than ligth travel. Oh but then we could also see the Bible as science if the acient aliens theory is correct. I have heard that some of the things in the bible could be indicative of aliens using flying craft and from the descriptions of such like reverse engineer them or we could use the story of the 10 plauges to assist in disaster management.

Anyway to go off from my tangent science is a very good tool but I agree with you in that it can also be used for unsavory purposes but we see that wit religion as well and doesnt offer the pros of science except for social order which is an important part of society to stay together. We ought to look for a nice glue type that wont poison people.

See, to me religion was never about being right. Religion is about feeling connected to the universe - to your place in this world. That's its purpose, ime. Meanwhile, science is about learning about our world and seeing how we can manipulate it. Two different things.

Yet, people who feel incapable of the words ' I don't know' or 'I cannot control everything' are most often fundamentalists - be it atheistic ones or religious ones. Honestly, in that case, it just doesn't matter - science or religion becomes a tool to cope with their mortality/inability to control/know everything

The moment you go 'That's impossible, as it's not been scientifically proven!!!' you might as well be quoting from the Bible and saying it's not part of the scripture therefore it doesn't exist

Just ask Einstein, or Da Vinci.


Anycase, I'mma get off my soap box now

 

[EcK]

That isn't meant sarcastically whatsoever.

(& neither was that disclaimer for you paranoids); I'm an atheist, but for me it was a no-brainer. Even as a child I didn't believe in god. I felt sorry for him for not existing.

So I have a quizzical attitude toward those gung-ho atheists who are so vocal & militant. Agnosticism has been a commonplace in western intellectual life for a hundred years so it's peculiar that people could still find the idea revolutionary.

But then I think, maybe they're fighting a cultural battle. After all religion is as old as humanity & maybe releasing its hold on our collective consciousness is something that will take generations of work. & maybe religious ideas are deep in the structure of our institutions & social organization which prevent us from solving problems.

But THEN I think... in all probability the real villains of today have nothing to do with religion, the things to worry about are resource overconsumption, resource misallocation, technological authoritarianism, economic exploitation, etc... & the atheist intellectuals are just a sign that the rich people of the world have too much time on their hands & nothing better to do.

What do you think? Is atheism today an important cultural battle?

I don't think atheists think of themselves as important because of their atheism. At least no more and probably less than religious folks do.
It is after all not atheists who claim to know fundamental truths of the universe based on n-removed hearsay backed by 0 evidence despite wildly extraordinary claims.

Do people find the idea revolutionary ? There's nothing revolutionary in recognizing the basic fact that - without evidence - a quasi or litteral infinity of possibilities are just as probable. making the probability of any one unsubstanciated claim being correct as near to 0 as to be 0.

I think we'll only really get headway into getting rid of superstition when human reach biological immortality. As it is fear of death which is the main drive behind religion. No unavoidable death, no reason to believe in pie-in-the-sky far fetched lies or crazy-people-tales.
Furthermore religous folks would self-weed themselves out (by choosing to die) OR show their hypocrisy by choosing not to go to their respective heaven.

Last but not least, in a society of immortals religious terrorism would probably be considered much more heinous (ie: you didn't shorten someone's lives by decades but millenia, millions or even billions of years)
[MENTION=27162]Cloudpatrol[/MENTION] [MENTION=5223]MDP2525[/MENTION] [MENTION=19719]Forever[/MENTION] [MENTION=1180]miss fortune[/MENTION] what'dyathink

 

[Forever]

I don't think atheists think of themselves as important because of their atheism. At least no more and probably less than religious folks do.
It is after all not atheists who claim to know fundamental truths of the universe based on n-removed hearsay backed by 0 evidence despite wildly extraordinary claims.

Do people find the idea revolutionary ? There's nothing revolutionary in recognizing the basic fact that - without evidence - a quasi or litteral infinity of possibilities are just as probable. making the probability of any one unsubstanciated claim being correct as near to 0 as to be 0.

I think we'll only really get headway into getting rid of superstition when human reach biological immortality. As it is fear of death which is the main drive behind religion. No unavoidable death, no reason to believe in pie-in-the-sky far fetched lies or crazy-people-tales.
Furthermore religous folks would self-weed themselves out (by choosing to die) OR show their hypocrisy by choosing not to go to their respective heaven.

Last but not least, in a society of immortals religious terrorism would probably be considered much more heinous (ie: you didn't shorten someone's lives by decades but millenia, millions or even billions of years)

[MENTION=27162]Cloudpatrol[/MENTION] [MENTION=5223]MDP2525[/MENTION] [MENTION=19719]Forever[/MENTION] [MENTION=1180]miss fortune[/MENTION] what'dyathink

Atheism alone in my perspective is a very limited view of seeing the world. Even while some of the religious follow a dogma, there is unification among others. Atheism is kind of like "I'm only your friend if you can provide enough information on how I can I disprove others or you know how to make reasonable doubt to others" and when the person runs out of arguments. What is there that a lack of God is going to unite you for? Now this is only one possible reason.

Atheism still fails to explain a lot of things too. It relies on science for most of the new atheists are hoping it'll answer their questions. Imo I don't think they'll ever get their answer. And not everyone is able to stomach purposelessness.

I tend to be more agnostic theist, I'm not saying I'm better than the atheists, I'm just saying that they shouldn't expect much to come out from what they believe. So no special benefits. You still got to work, it may be even the "tough love" crowd because you believe in no superstition. Everything is done by natural and physical causes. So the demand for great respect from others is quite frankly absurd.

 

[Lark]

Hubris is hubris, but honestly some people are that good and smart. The thing is that scientists are searching for reality so if something comes along and "proves" God they cannot deny. Religion does not have that benefit. Even if something "dis-proves" God they would never believe it. Its not within the teachings.

Any God that can be "proven" is no God to begin with.

 

[EcK]

Atheism alone in my perspective is a very limited view of seeing the world. Even while some of the religious follow a dogma, there is unification among others. Atheism is kind of like "I'm only your friend if you can provide enough information on how I can I disprove others or you know how to make reasonable doubt to others" and when the person runs out of arguments. What is there that a lack of God is going to unite you for? Now this is only one possible reason.

Atheism still fails to explain a lot of things too. It relies on science for most of the new atheists are hoping it'll answer their questions. Imo I don't think they'll ever get their answer. And not everyone is able to stomach purposelessness.

I tend to be more agnostic theist, I'm not saying I'm better than the atheists, I'm just saying that they shouldn't expect much to come out from what they believe. So no special benefits. You still got to work, it may be even the "tough love" crowd because you believe in no superstition. Everything is done by natural and physical causes. So the demand for great respect from others is quite frankly absurd.

Yeah but religion explains nothing. It just makes baseless claims. As to your

"I'm only your friend if you can provide enough information on how I can I disprove others or you know how to make reasonable doubt to others"

Maybe you're thinking of 'asshole teenage atheists'. I'm friends with plenty of religious folks. But being their friends doesn't mean I'm going to lie to them about how likely not to be a con their brand of religiousness is.

- - - Updated - - -

Any God that can be "proven" is no God to begin with.

Because...? Divinity is about how well you hide your existence after revealing it to desert dwelling primitives thousands of years ago?
I think you're confusing 'Divinity' with hide-and-seek.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

[MENTION=5643]EcK[/MENTION]

I generally see the over-arching debate for/against higher power belief as ridiculous. The debates are rather pointless and no one is very open to change on either side as their criteria for why each believes the way they do is diametrically opposed in emphasis. One is philosophical in nature and attempts to answer the unknown from a metaphysical standpoint. The other seeks to answer the unknown through scientific discovery. Notice I did not say "exclusively".

Most of these debates assume the other party has a zero-sum approach. 100% of believers don't believe in scientific veracity. 100% of atheists don't believe in anything metaphysical. Which is so not true unless that person is an extremist.

When you look at things further, a lot of atheists believe in quantum mechanics possibilities to explain the natural world because it is based in the scientific realm. When really, those are theories that we are not even close enough to explain but there is a certain level of FAITH in that we WILL SOON answer these questions. Well, that's how religion works too. Instead of the scientific method being worshiped, believers put their FAITH in a higher power that we WILL SOON answer these questions.

Both work off of faith in some form. Now, if you are talking about the effects of different beliefs that is an entirely different argument that gets conflated into the argument for/against religion. Religion gets blamed for lots of ill in the world. As if morality and religion go hand in hand. LOL. Atheists love to tell people that morality and lack of belief in higher power aren't tied together. That morality and religion are not mutually exclusive. Yet, they use the same argument to explain away a despicable act of a believer. Even if that act is not in line with the system of belief the person espouses. That is a mere moot point. Believers and atheists like to point the finger at the other using the same "logic". In reality, these issues have variable subjectivity.

Anyway...

On a one-on-one level, I'm much more open to discussing these matters with anyone who is pretty open-minded. I enjoy hearing why someone thinks the way they do. No matter who they are, I may not agree. I don't volunteer myself to get beaten down with smug condescension and judgement if I don't have to. So, that basically means I keep my beliefs to myself.

 

[Poki]

[MENTION=5643]EcK[/MENTION]

I generally see the over-arching debate for/against higher power belief as ridiculous. The debates are rather pointless and no one is very open to change on either side as their criteria for why each believes the way they do is diametrically opposed in emphasis. One is philosophical in nature and attempts to answer the unknown from a metaphysical standpoint. The other seeks to answer the unknown through scientific discovery. Notice I did not say "exclusively".

Most of these debates assume the other party has a zero-sum approach. 100% of believers don't believe in scientific veracity. 100% of atheists don't believe in anything metaphysical. Which is so not true unless that person is an extremist.

When you look at things further, a lot of atheists believe in quantum mechanics possibilities to explain the natural world because it is based in the scientific realm. When really, those are theories that we are not even close enough to explain but there is a certain level of FAITH in that we WILL SOON answer these questions. Well, that's how religion works too. Instead of the scientific method being worshiped, believers put their FAITH in a higher power that we WILL SOON answer these questions.

Both work off of faith in some form. Now, if you are talking about the effects of different beliefs that is an entirely different argument that gets conflated into the argument for/against religion. Religion gets blamed for lots of ill in the world. As if morality and religion go hand in hand. LOL. Atheists love to tell people that morality and lack of belief in higher power aren't tied together. That morality and religion are not mutually exclusive. Yet, they use the same argument to explain away a despicable act of a believer. Even if that act is not in line with the system of belief the person espouses. That is a mere moot point. Believers and atheists like to point the finger at the other using the same "logic". In reality, these issues have variable subjectivity.

Anyway...

On a one-on-one level, I'm much more open to discussing these matters with anyone who is pretty open-minded. I enjoy hearing why someone thinks the way they do. No matter who they are, I may not agree. I don't volunteer myself to get beaten down with smug condescension and judgement if I don't have to. So, that basically means I keep my beliefs to myself.

I have personally seperated religion and God. They dont align enough IMHO

 

[Lark]

Because...? Divinity is about how well you hide your existence after revealing it to desert dwelling primitives thousands of years ago?
I think you're confusing 'Divinity' with hide-and-seek.

No, that's absurd, why would you seek to make what I was saying appear absurd? Unless you are not sure how else to respond and have "got nothing".

 

[EcK]

No, that's absurd, why would you seek to make what I was saying appear absurd? Unless you are not sure how else to respond and have "got nothing".

Because that's what you said. Making absurdity sound profound and mystical doesn't make it so.
I'm not 'attacking you' or anything, just commenting on the laughably transparent con-tactics used by religions to explain their inconsistencies away.

 

[Lark]

Because that's what you said. Making absurdity sound profound and mystical doesn't make it so.
I'm not 'attacking you' or anything, just commenting on the laughably transparent con-tactics used by religions to explain their inconsistencies away.

You can carry on attributing thinking to others but its a kind of a on sided conversation.

 

[Forever]

Yeah but religion explains nothing. It just makes baseless claims. As to your


Maybe you're thinking of 'asshole teenage atheists'. I'm friends with plenty of religious folks. But being their friends doesn't mean I'm going to lie to them about how likely not to be a con their brand of religiousness is.

I need to understand if you are anti-organized religion or entire every claim to a God there is. I grew up with asshole teenage atheists, they were... well, assholes by definition.

 

[Cloudpatrol]

I don't think atheists think of themselves as important because of their atheism. At least no more and probably less than religious folks do.
It is after all not atheists who claim to know fundamental truths of the universe based on n-removed hearsay backed by 0 evidence despite wildly extraordinary claims.

Atheists cover a spectrum of personalities. Just like people who identify with religion. Some identify with a belief but are still open-minded to discussion and possibility, some are stark adherents and have no wiggle room. Some are not content in their own beliefs but want to persuade others.

In my personal experience, I have found Atheists to be intelligent and fairly open-minded individuals who are realistic but not without hope or a personal moral code. I haven't found them to be elitist.

Do people find the idea revolutionary ? There's nothing revolutionary in recognizing the basic fact that - without evidence - a quasi or litteral infinity of possibilities are just as probable. making the probability of any one unsubstanciated claim being correct as near to 0 as to be 0.
I think we'll only really get headway into getting rid of superstition when human reach biological immortality. As it is fear of death which is the main drive behind religion. No unavoidable death, no reason to believe in pie-in-the-sky far fetched lies or crazy-people-tales.
Furthermore religous folks would self-weed themselves out (by choosing to die) OR show their hypocrisy by choosing not to go to their respective heaven.

I agree that fear of death is a main motivator. Other things like a searching for meaning, wanting a moral code to live by, family traditions...also play a role.

I don't conclude that either: people who identify with a religion OR atheists 1) have all the answers or 2) have none of the answers. When someone displays a spiritual need or is "searching" I find it encouraging that they are pondering the 'larger issues' of life and are not complacent lemmings. The same way that I am interested in hearing what 'answers or solutions' atheists posit, as you have done above.

Last but not least, in a society of immortals religious terrorism would probably be considered much more heinous (ie: you didn't shorten someone's lives by decades but millenia, millions or even billions of years)

Interesting thought.

Have you seen the movie "Interstellar"? One of the things I found intriguing re: the plot was it was one of the few films about the future I have ever seen where 'man has recognized war is a futile pursuit' and abandoned all armies.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

No one is as important as they think they are.

 

[Amargith]

And everyone is more important than they fear/believe they are.

 

[Mole]

Under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the Constitution we have freedom of religion.

Freedom of religion means we are free to join any religion and leave any religion, and we are free to practice any religion, just as we are free to criticise any religion.

Atheism is of course the criticism of theism. So atheism is an essential part of freedom of religion.

In practice we are free to criticise any religion except Islam which regards the criticism of Islam or Mohammed as blasphemy, and deserves the death penalty.

And we are free to leave any religion except Islam where leaving Islam is called apostasy and deserves the death penalty.

So it is no wonder the 57 Islamic States of the Organisation of Islamic Co-operation (OIC) has publicly and openly rejected the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in favour of Sharia Law, and have so rejected freedom of religion.

 

[Yuurei]

And everyone is more important than they fear/believe they are.

No, I am quite aware that in the greater scheme of things I am but a spec, and that the world owes me nothing.

No better motivation to get things I need for myself.

 

[Amargith]

No, I am quite aware that in the greater scheme of things I am but a spec, and that the world owes me nothing.

No better motivation to get things I need for myself.

That's not what I was talking about.

I'm talking about the fact that most people, when you dig underneath their 'thinking', sell themselves short, don't believe in themselves and generally underestimate their importance - to the people who love them, the people they influence, and so on.


And from that comes a desire to overcompensate - thinking style.

It's not about being owed - it's about knowing your own worth.

However paradoxal this juxtaposition may seem, it's not.

Both are true.