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Original sin?

Lark

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Does anyone believe in or think about the idea of original sin? I've not heard it talked about much at all lately, although I did hear a presenter on a radio show lately talk about losing his roman catholic faith and how he embraced humanism, he didnt think he was sure if he could call it humanism but he said that he did think that the idea of original sin was so absurd as to make him question the whole subject of faith and belief.

I dont know much about the idea in its origin, it was decided by the church from scripture? It is an RC thing? I know it was associated with the importance of baptism and sacramentalism and the reformation sought to break that, although was it reinvented by the schismatic and protestant christians with theories of predestination and election?

I remember seeing Robert Crumb (is it Robert or Richard, cant recall) cartoons about sin, in the form of a milk bottle which turns black and is turned white again by confessions, it was simplistic but I think it was biographical and a proper depiction of his understanding at the time.
 

Eric B

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IT stems from the Bible's account of the Fall of Adam, and afterwards, scripture's testimony that "There is none who does good. Every one of them has together become corrupt. There is none who does good; no, not one!" (Psalms 53:1-3, Romans 3:10ff) "the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; Who can know it? (17:9) "There is not a just man on earth who does good and does not sin". (Ecclesiastes 7:20).
 

lauranna

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There is a film called Original Sin with Angelina Jolie and Antonio Banderas. Angelina is hot in it. I realise you want something a bit deeper but I just thought I would throw that in there.
 

Munchies

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people with the origional sin owned the bible before us so i can't beleive it. I can't trust a sinner with the word of god, it's only the word of a sinner
 

Qlip

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No, I don't. It's one of the bigger reasons that I couldn't be Christian when I attempted to be Christian for family harmony reasons.
 

Lark

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No, I don't. It's one of the bigger reasons that I couldn't be Christian when I attempted to be Christian for family harmony reasons.

I have to read more about this to be honest but what I would say is that not believing this, and I dont as I've encountered it to date, I dont believe prevents me being a Christian. Although there are modern and older doctrines I dont accept which believing it invalidates my membership of the "club", maybe others would disagree but its not going to phase me.
 

Salomé

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No, I don't. It's one of the bigger reasons that I couldn't be Christian when I attempted to be Christian for family harmony reasons.

This made me smile.

So did this:

 

Qlip

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I have to read more about this to be honest but what I would say is that not believing this, and I dont as I've encountered it to date, I dont believe prevents me being a Christian. Although there are modern and older doctrines I dont accept which believing it invalidates my membership of the "club", maybe others would disagree but its not going to phase me.

I suppose you could do everything a Christian does and not believe this, I'm not sure. But, the whole expression of Christianity is very strongly rooted in original sin. The wretchedness of the sinner and the helpless need of redemption. The urgency of the need for those to be rescued from their flawed selves before they are lost to Hell. The taught inclination to deny one's own flawed and sinful instincts.

[MENTION=5143]Salomé[/MENTION] Yup, that's it.
 

Lark

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I suppose you could do everything a Christian does and not believe this, I'm not sure. But, the whole expression of Christianity is very strongly rooted in original sin. The wretchedness of the sinner and the helpless need of redemption. The urgency of the need for those to be rescued from their flawed selves before they are lost to Hell. The taught inclination to deny one's own flawed and sinful instincts.

[MENTION=5143]Salomé[/MENTION] Yup, that's it.

I have heard it articulated that way, although its not how I have experienced it in my own household as conveyed by my parents, as they've lived it or spoken about it and having relied on the gospels and reading about the life and ministry of Jesus more than anything else perhaps those other versions of Christianity have been more in tune with others experience than mine.

It is hard to explain but I do have a relationship with God and prayer which predates much of the talk about the primacy of a relationship and "life with God" being important, so this worldly or temporal concerns about doctrine and rules are not so troubling to me, for someone who has asserted the importance of tradition and transmitting it between generations this sounds like so much contradiction I'm sure but such is life I guess.
 

Totenkindly

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I suppose you could do everything a Christian does and not believe this, I'm not sure. But, the whole expression of Christianity is very strongly rooted in original sin. The wretchedness of the sinner and the helpless need of redemption. The urgency of the need for those to be rescued from their flawed selves before they are lost to Hell. The taught inclination to deny one's own flawed and sinful instincts.

Yup. It's almost like people HAVE to be vile, corrupt pieces of slime... or otherwise they wouldn't "need" God, and thus people wouldn't "have" to believe in that particular faith in question (in this case, Christianity). It's such a binary extreme, either/or. It confuses me as to how people can think that they can view human beings as pieces of garbage by nature and then turn around and love them; it's part of the reason people have so much trouble loving people they have decided to be vile sinners, that struggle would not exist if they didn't feel the need to dismiss everything about someone just because they disagree on whether a particular behavior is moral or not.

The reality to me, is that people do have a strong drive for survival and self-interest, like every other organism on the planet; however, as we grow and mature, we can learn to set that aside or prioritize something else, developing the capacity for self-sacrifice... we learn to place our values (and thus sometimes others) ahead of our own physical survival or other forms of well-being, serving something besides base instincts. But that doesn't seem to be what original sin is talking about, which is saying that because of one person's sin, suddenly every descendent automatically is corrupt; while we may all be human and thus reflective of other people, there's really no cause/effect chain in motion.

It really just seems to be a doctrine existing to justify everyone's need to convert to the religion in question.
 

Qlip

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[MENTION=7]Jennifer[/MENTION] , I still have that voice in my head that says, "You are being presumptuous, thinking you know better than [Religion] on your own state of existence. You are taking the easy road for your own selfish and sinful reasons." It's only a very little voice now, mostly an echo. It's what a controlling religion wants you to think, it's a trap with no way out. Except, that me leaving was anything but the easy way out for me, and I had assimilated these Christian values so deeply, the flaw in its own dogma became glaringly obvious to me. The wrongness of it was revealed by its own teachings. (There's my Fi!)
 

Qlip

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[MENTION=7280]Lark[/MENTION]
Oh, and FYI.. this doesn't mean that I don't think Christianity has some beauty and value to people. I know that different denominations emphasize the original sin to different degrees and to different effect. But, because of my upbringing, I just can't gloss over that point in the theology. It's always there, though maybe not as prominent.
 

Totenkindly

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I still have that voice in my head that says, "You are being presumptuous, thinking you know better than [Religion] on your own state of existence. You are taking the easy road for your own selfish and sinful reasons." It's only a very little voice now, mostly an echo. It's what a controlling religion wants you to think, it's a trap with no way out. Except, that me leaving was anything but the easy way out for me, and I had assimilated these Christian values so deeply, the flaw in its own dogma became glaringly obvious to me. The wrongness of it was revealed by it's own teachings. (There's my Fi!)

To me, it's an observation thing -- what I observe and what makes the most sense isn't what is being taught.

And at some point, everything about faith is just an assumption that a human being makes. We can believe what we think makes sense -- whether it comes through observation, or through logic, or through feelings, or through imagination, or through some authority we have decided to believe beyond all those other things. We each still make a decision about what is most trustworthy... so ALL beliefs are determined internally. People who choose to believe an authority outside themselves (person, group, holy writ, or whatever) are still making a personal decision to believe that; believing an authority is no better than the other choices and I think has some glaring flaws since all truth thus becomes external and a person cannot credit themselves with any real source of judgment.

What you describe is exactly what bad relationships do; the controlling person tries to remove all volition from the partner it seeks to dominate, by dismissing, downplaying, and undermining the partner's experience, wisdom, intelligence, and establishing itself as the only voice of truth.

Original Sin is a big doctrine; like I said, the "need for a savior" hinges on it, and I was taught it at a very very early age so it was like a foundational truth for me. Eventually I came to accept it was far more ambiguous than was being let on, but people who don't accept it will be labeled as "not Christian" by some major branches of Christianity.
 

tinker683

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I remember reading and hearing about during my confirmation classes when I was a Lutheran. My own pastor seemed to gloss over it and flat told us that it was up to us to believe it or not. When I was a fundy I believed it to be literally truth, when I became a liberal Christian I took it as an allegory or metaphor, and now as an atheist I think it's probably very similar to a lot of other creation myths and that their may or may be some symbolism inherit in it but otherwise don't assign it any value to my life.

My own father, a deacon in the ELCA, doesn't give it any weight, which is interesting since the Book of Concord affirms it. :shrug:
 

miss fortune

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as a female I happen to hold a grudge against any doctrine that paints my gender as the cause of the "fall of man" and therefore the originator of all sin in humanity... original sin has been used as an excuse for years for subjugating an entire gender, which is absolutely bullshit (similar to the Hammitic myth and the belief that less white people are therefore more sinful) :nono:

also the concept that you're born guilty and automatically need salvation in order to avoid damnation is kind of disturbing... and opposite of the basis of the american legal system's belief in innocent until proven guilty... what kind of asshole just presumes that people are evil before they have proof to prove otherwise? :shock:

it all reminds me of having to read sinners in the hands of an angry god in american lit, in which god is a total douchebag who really wants to just let go and drop everyone into hell... who wants to believe in someone like that? :doh:

I've always been more for a checks and balances system of redemption... atone for what you've done wrong, but there's no need to apologize if you have done no wrong :shrug:

I have a lot of problems with christianity, original sin is just one of the many things on that list :)
 

Qlip

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My own father, a deacon in the ELCA, doesn't give it any weight, which is interesting since the Book of Concord affirms it. :shrug:

When I made my attempt to conform, it was with Missouri Synod Lutherans... that kind of stuff doesn't fly there. Then I tried to prod the SO to do the ELCA thing after I got allergic to MS services, that didn't fly either. :D
 

kelric

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As someone who isn't religious, and more importantly who wasn't raised in a family that participated in and taught the specifics of a religious education (although the rest of my family considers themselves Christian) I'm coming from a different perspective than most previous posters...

Honestly, I find the concept of original sin pretty insulting. If I'm to be judged, I would insist that I be judged on my own actions, for which I am am responsible, with extenuating circumstances taken into consideration. The idea that little baby Kelric (way back when, after I was hatched from an egg with my dinosaurian peers) came into life already damned, corrupt, and desperately in need of moral saving, seems utterly pessimistic and depraved. That's not to say that we as people don't need each other, that good examples, stories, and models aren't important, because they are. But a neutral start seems like a given.

Original Sin is a big doctrine; like I said, the "need for a savior" hinges on it, and I was taught it at a very very early age so it was like a foundational truth for me. Eventually I came to accept it was far more ambiguous than was being let on, but people who don't accept it will be labeled as "not Christian" by some major branches of Christianity.

I think that this is a lot of it. Granted, my perspective isn't one from the "inside" of a religious community or tradition, so it's natural that I feel differently than people who have -- but to me, the concept of original sin seems more like a big hook to guilt-driven behavioral control.

Short answer.. not a fan :p.
 

Lark

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[MENTION=7280]Lark[/MENTION]
Oh, and FYI.. this doesn't mean that I don't think Christianity has some beauty and value to people. I know that different denominations emphasize the original sin to different degrees and to different effect. But, because of my upbringing, I just can't gloss over that point in the theology. It's always there, though maybe not as prominent.

Oh yeah, I dont think there's any need to dismiss or minimise its significance but I'd not abandon a faith on that basis and I think its more human than divine in its origin.
 

Totenkindly

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as a female I happen to hold a grudge against any doctrine that paints my gender as the cause of the "fall of man" and therefore the originator of all sin in humanity... original sin has been used as an excuse for years for subjugating an entire gender, which is absolutely bullshit (similar to the Hammitic myth and the belief that less white people are therefore more sinful)

What's interesting if you study the culture of it is how everything is spun around and rationalized so that those kind of gender roles become "positive affirmations" of gender differences rather than some sort of oppression of subgroups within the faith.

Same thing with some of the doctrines, like Original Sin, which basically are spun around to assert that God is awesome because he loves us even if we're so screwed up.
 
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