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There is no God

Lark

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This is exactly why I currently consider myself agnostic. I was raised in the Christian faith, and I was always taught that believing in God implies belief in the absolute truth (whether in a literal or metaphorical sense) and infallibility of everything in the Bible. There are many things in the Bible that I just don't agree with and cannot hold to be true. According to my early Biblical education, if God exists, then the Bible is all true and right. So to me, the fact that (I believe) that there are some very wrong and untrue things in the Bible implies that God is not real.

At earlier times in my life, I considered myself "saved" as was defined by my church at the time, I had accepted Jesus Christ as my personal savior and all that. Now I'm not even sure I believe in God, which according to this would be an unforgivable sin if I died right now. So am I saved or am I damned? This all seems very contradictory.

Who is to say?

Anyway, the first part is interesting, I have said things which you dont agree with do you think that perhaps I dont exist? I'm not being facetious and not trying to catch you out either (wouldnt dream of it) but do you see what I mean by drawing the comparison?
 

Lark

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Isn't the bible more about agreeing with the supposed unique-yet-multiple deity than stating whether it exists or not (the bible tends to assume existence )

There are atheists who believe that the bible does not suggest supernatural or otherworldly beliefs, for instance Fuerbach or Fromm.
 

Aquarelle

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Isn't the bible more about agreeing with the supposed unique-yet-multiple deity than stating whether it exists or not (the bible tends to assume existence )

That's not the point. :shrug: Of course the Bible assumes existence. But if I don't believe in God in the first place, I have no reason to believe in the Bible, so why would I consult the Bible to find out if God exists? The problem for me is that I started out believing in God and the Bible, and was taught that you can't really believe in one without believing in the other. But now I definitely don't believe some of the stuff in the Bible. So that makes me question whether the whole thing was just a load of crap all along. :D
 

EcK

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The problem for me is that I started out believing in God and the Bible
Why? trust in your parents or something?

I never understood why it took so much time for ppl to figure out the utter lack of sense, coherence and moral of something that is supposed to be absolute and a moral arrow. Independantly from the fact that all claims\proofs\evidence seem counter factual

Makes sense in children though. Under developed prefrontal cortex + early endoctrination.
 

Aquarelle

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Who is to say?

Anyway, the first part is interesting, I have said things which you dont agree with do you think that perhaps I dont exist? I'm not being facetious and not trying to catch you out either (wouldnt dream of it) but do you see what I mean by drawing the comparison?

Yeah, but you don't claim to be all-knowing, perfect or infallible, either. ;) I see what you're saying, but it's also different with a human being. I've talked to you and seen pictures of you; I know you exist!
 

Lark

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I'd like to know the answer to this myself. I was a very devout Lutheran earlier in my life. Am I still OK then even though I am now an atheist?

Have you read Confessions of a Justified Sinner by Hogg?

Its something I ask of all Lutherans I meet, given what I understand of predestination as presented by Luther and Calvin in their writing, I've read them both and read Luther and Erasmus' discourse on Free Will, very interesting stuff.

Anyway, have you read Matthew? It is the only book which has Jesus explicitly speak about judgement and the afterlife, providing more than a clue about salvation and damnation.

He does not mention religious practices, he does not mention fidelity to laws, he does not mention sect or creed or class or anything of that kind, he describes how those expecting salvation have not proven themselves when they have had the opportunity and those who did not expect salvation have been doing it all along.

This was part of the big reformation era battle about salvation by faith and works or salvation by faith alone, now, the RCC has reconciled, on paper at least, with the Lutheran church, acknowledged completely that salvation can by faith, or rather grace, alone. That salvation is a gift from God as God being the creator and author of all needs nothing from his creation or created beings, therefore it is impossible to earn, deserve or win salvation by your actions.

While I can understand the logic at work there it is not what Jesus himself taught, it is not what he lived out himself in his own life and I'm going with that.
 

Aquarelle

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Why? trust in your parents or something?

I never understood why it took so much time for ppl to figure out the utter lack of sense, coherence and moral of something that is supposed to be absolute and a moral arrow. Independantly from the fact that all claims\proofs\evidence seem counter factual

Makes sense in children though. Under developed prefrontal cortex + early endoctrination.

Yeah, trust in my grandma, actually. My parents were both lapsed Christians for most of my early life. They were both raised in very religious households, but my dad is an atheist, and my mom is a believer but not religious. That probably has something to do with my current state of affairs, as well. :) I think the main thing is that I was taught to believe as a child, and once you are raised to believe one thing, it is pretty hard to shake that belief, even if you come to realize that there are some holes in its foundation. ;)
 

Lark

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Yeah, but you don't claim to be all-knowing, perfect or infallible, either. ;) I see what you're saying, but it's also different with a human being. I've talked to you and seen pictures of you; I know you exist!

Are you sure? It could be an elaborate plot (alright I dont want to persist with this and leave everyone thinking I dont really exist).
 

Lark

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Why? trust in your parents or something?

I never understood why it took so much time for ppl to figure out the utter lack of sense, coherence and moral of something that is supposed to be absolute and a moral arrow. Independantly from the fact that all claims\proofs\evidence seem counter factual

Makes sense in children though. Under developed prefrontal cortex + early endoctrination.

:laugh:

It makes you wonder how it has persisted doesnt it? Also how anything like the old and new testaments could be written in the first place, pretty articulate documents for having been composed by a bunch of intellectually infantile, incoherent and insensible authors.
 

EcK

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Yeah, trust in my grandma, actually. My parents were both lapsed Christians for most of my early life. They were both raised in very religious households, but my dad is an atheist, and my mom is a believer but not religious. That probably has something to do with my current state of affairs, as well. :) I think the main thing is that I was taught to believe as a child, and once you are raised to believe one thing, it is pretty hard to shake that belief, even if you come to realize that there are some holes in its foundation. ;)

Holes in the logic tend to bother me too much, also the whole singing etc just bored me to death as a kid. Generally it's either early indoctrination or some events leading to an entanglement between sense of purpose\ego\self esteem and religious belief later in life. I think reality is more interesting than glorified daddy issues and\or intellectual laziness
 

EcK

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:laugh:

It makes you wonder how it has persisted doesnt it? Also how anything like the old and new testaments could be written in the first place, pretty articulate documents for having been composed by a bunch of intellectually infantile, incoherent and insensible authors.
I was talking about the followers. owning an ipod doesnt mean you could design it. But yes, believers are generally of lesser intelligence statistically speaking according to studies and wildly used psychometric tests.
 

Aquarelle

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Holes in the logic tend to bother me too much, also the whole singing etc just bored me to death as a kid. Generally it's either early indoctrination or some events leading to an entanglement between sense of purpose\ego\self esteem and religious belief later in life. I think reality is more interesting than glorified daddy issues and\or intellectual laziness
I like the singing part. :) My church band could rock out! And unlike the Catholics and Lutherans, we didn't have to stand up and sit down every five seconds. ;)


If you're going to meet God I want an invite to that gig. :laugh:
I know a place where you can hear the sound of God for $20. I think it might be a scam, though-- my brother heard it and he said it sounded like a xylophone.
 

tinker683

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Have you read Confessions of a Justified Sinner by Hogg?

I haven't but by the title alone that sounds interesting.

Its something I ask of all Lutherans I meet, given what I understand of predestination as presented by Luther and Calvin in their writing, I've read them both and read Luther and Erasmus' discourse on Free Will, very interesting stuff.

Anyway, have you read Matthew? It is the only book which has Jesus explicitly speak about judgement and the afterlife, providing more than a clue about salvation and damnation.

He does not mention religious practices, he does not mention fidelity to laws, he does not mention sect or creed or class or anything of that kind, he describes how those expecting salvation have not proven themselves when they have had the opportunity and those who did not expect salvation have been doing it all along.

I have read Matthew, though I'll admit it's been a long time but yes I remember those ideas and its a damned good one if I may say so.

This was part of the big reformation era battle about salvation by faith and works or salvation by faith alone, now, the RCC has reconciled, on paper at least, with the Lutheran church, acknowledged completely that salvation can by faith, or rather grace, alone. That salvation is a gift from God as God being the creator and author of all needs nothing from his creation or created beings, therefore it is impossible to earn, deserve or win salvation by your actions.

Yeah, I read a little bit of the 2nd Vactican Council and ecumenicalism that seems to be going on between the Lutheran and Catholic Churches.

While I can understand the logic at work there it is not what Jesus himself taught, it is not what he lived out himself in his own life and I'm going with that.

Keep on keeping brotha ;)
 

Lark

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Holes in the logic tend to bother me too much, also the whole singing etc just bored me to death as a kid. Generally it's either early indoctrination or some events leading to an entanglement between sense of purpose\ego\self esteem and religious belief later in life. I think reality is more interesting than glorified daddy issues and\or intellectual laziness

You know you sound pretty angry, bitter and disrespectful when you say that.

Its a pretty facial and derogatory assessment of religion to suggest that if it isnt a consequence of brainwashing its a result of mental breakdown. I wouldnt suggest either about atheists, although there is a definite correlation in my experience between those who reject religion and who have for some reason a desire to reject their own upbringing or parent or community's beliefs and traditions.
 

EcK

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You know you sound pretty angry, bitter and disrespectful when you say that.

Its a pretty facial and derogatory assessment of religion to suggest that if it isnt a consequence of brainwashing its a result of mental breakdown. I wouldnt suggest either about atheists, although there is a definite correlation in my experience between those who reject religion and who have for some reason a desire to reject their own upbringing or parent or community's beliefs and traditions.

I didn't say i was an atheist. I have a thing about rejecting what doesn't make sense. Also I don't know why you would assume that religious belief should be respected any more than any other statement about the world. It seems pretty childish to think it should be so.
 

Lark

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I was talking about the followers. owning an ipod doesnt mean you could design it. But yes, believers are generally of lesser intelligence statistically speaking according to studies and wildly used psychometric tests.

It is disappointing that you would seek to advance the truth or efficacy of your ideas by such a derogatory treatment of others who do not profess to believe the same.
 

Lark

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I like the singing part. :) My church band could rock out! And unlike the Catholics and Lutherans, we didn't have to stand up and sit down every five seconds. ;)

I know a place where you can hear the sound of God for $20. I think it might be a scam, though-- my brother heard it and he said it sounded like a xylophone.

I'd buy that you know, I'd like to hear the sound of God.

Damn lutherans stealing out act. :laugh:
 

EcK

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It is disappointing that you would seek to advance the truth or efficacy of your ideas by such a derogatory treatment of others who do not profess to believe the same.
I'm talking about studies, numbers. It's not derogatory to say that believers score low on psychometric tests, it's simply what the evidence say. That's the sort of thing u can do with empirical data, as opposed to making up stuff. You should try it.
 
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